bbmusic wrote:I don't recall it being any of your comments that I was referring to, Josh.
I understand, however I really want to define the discussion we're having as one that is not about skill. I take about as much offense at being labeled an elitist as I do when I am feeling like the victim of elitism, so when discussions like this crop up and someone suggests that the people on one side of the fence are just being snobbish, and I don't think that's true, it really bothers me.
This discussion is, however, about technique and how we approach it, which varies from person to person. Depending on how you play your instrument, certain features are more or less useful, such as thumb rests, adjustable mutes, or fret lines.
cassius987 wrote:This discussion is, however, about technique and how we approach it, which varies from person to person. Depending on how you play your instrument, certain features are more or less useful, such as thumb rests, adjustable mutes, or fret lines.
Exactly. And these kinds of discussions are exactly what I want to and need to read as I stand at the precipice of jumping into FL land.
Well, I'll add my thoughts from a technique perspective:
1. I play standing 95% of the time, and the only time I play sitting is just messing around. When standing, I can barely see the fingerboard on any of my basses. To do so would require bending my back and/or craning my neck (or worse, using my wrist to tilt the board). To see the fingerboard in the lowest positions, where the change in parallax from string to string is greatest and hence lines would be of the greatest potential utility, would require even more bending and/or craning of my neck. Having lived through a bass-induced injury that required a six-month hiatus from playing anything and having to relearn all the fingering patterns on my upright, I've become very concious of the ergonomics of playing.
2. Intonation on a FL is just different from that on a fretted bass. Lines would seem to impart a false sense of intonation (in other words, here's the line, if I'm in tune that must be where the correct pitch is).
3. Lines seem to suggest to the luthier that the side dots should be placed where they are on a fretted bass. OK; personal preference totally, but that's just terribly distracting if you're used to an unlined board with dots at the pitch.
Can we have everything louder than everything else?
cassius987 wrote:This discussion is, however, about technique and how we approach it, which varies from person to person. Depending on how you play your instrument, certain features are more or less useful, such as thumb rests, adjustable mutes, or fret lines.
Exactly. And these kinds of discussions are exactly what I want to and need to read as I stand at the precipice of jumping into FL land.
As a novice fretless player, all I can say is, you've really got to be able to hear yourself. Now, I'm learning on an unlined one (Rick) and to be honest, I, personally can't see a need for lines. Of course, I've played fretted for a lot of years, and Ricks for the last 30, so I'm kinda used to the scale length, etc. and where the noted are supposed to be.
I just went out and bought one, cause I've always wanted one. But if you think you want to go fretless, I'd suggest trying out a few, lined and unlined and see what seems easiest to deal with. You may find you don't like it at all, hard to imagine, but ya know, different strokes and all that...
I have NO idea what to do with those skinny stringed things... I'm just a bass player...
As a fretless player with neither the time for a lot of practice nor the budget for a second, cool-looking lineless bass, I love my lined Tobias. Naturally, I approach it differently that I do my fretted basses, and part of that approach is where I place my fingers. In order to know where to place my fingers—because I don't sight read and don't have an audience to gaze at—I look at the lines.
It's easy to comprehend the concept that, on a fretless, your finger becomes the fret, so your finger should be where the line is, not between them. Of course, if your finger is centered on the line, you'll be sharp, because the string will actually be stopped by the edge of your finger that is closest to the bridge, and that edge is going to be several millimeters sharp of the line. So I aim to be just to the left of the line, and when it sounds wonky, I can nudge the pitch by rolling my finger a little bit or, in legato passages, applying vibrato.
I went through this thought process in the beginning, and these days it's second nature, and I just play the sucka. But I still look at the fretboard. On the guitar, too.
I also look at my keyboard when I type.
If one is considering trying fretless but has some trepidation, I'd say why not try one with lines? You can always choose not not look at them if you feel like that would be cooler, or you have something more interesting to look at.
bbmusic wrote:If one is considering trying fretless but has some trepidation, I'd say why not try one with lines? You can always choose not not look at them if you feel like that would be cooler, or you have something more interesting to look at.
Absolutely. The reason I got rid of my basses with lines was not because the lines were actually making it harder to play, because I ignored them. I just didn't like either of the basses that well in the long run... I would however caution any new fretless player who has to sightread music to immediately train themselves against looking at the lines. It absolutely destroyed me in jazz ensemble a few times when I first got my Mexi Jazz Bass fretless.
bbmusic wrote:I also look at my keyboard when I type.
You and my wife... I'll have to take it easy on you for that one.
Jumpin' into the Fl pool! I just purchased a yamahaha Rbx250f from a TB member,the description and price sounded too good to pass up! I will try to post pics this weekend. I have been noodling around on it, and have not been discouraged by the resulting noises. It does have a lined fb,in fact it seems like the "lines" might actually be inlaid wood pieces,because you can feel a slight ridge at the side of the fb,just like frets that need dressing. I have found if i don't look at the lines,dots,etc,and just listen,i do better. Time will tell if i like playing fl enough to pay for a ric fl,this bass was $150!
Very happy this thread is open again as I have been tossing around getting a fretless Rick bass. But given that they are SO hard
to find, I was looking into doing a conversion of a donor Rick. But in order to keep the cost of this reasonable, I'd probably have
to go with having the frets pulled and filled in. So my first fretless would have the dreaded / not-dreaded (depending on what
side of the fence you are on) lines!
So other than conversion costs of course, I had thought it would be useful to start playing the fretless with the lines. I assumed I'd
be using my ears and relying on my Rick muscle memory (as little as I have of that yet) to find the right notes. But it would be nice
to have the lines there to give (perhaps false) confidence and rough guidance. And eventually I'd just be ignoring them as I got
playing time in on the fretless.
I guess I really figured if you wanted the lines, they are there. If you don't, just ignore them!
The problem isn't so much the lines, it that having lines generally means having side dots at the fretted bass position rather than at the correct pitch. I rely on quick reference to side dots and muscle memory and I can't even see the fingerboard when I play, so the lines are meaningless. But having a dot at the wrong pitch (and a different distance from the correct pitch at each dot); that's not just inconvenient, it's downright confusing.
Can we have everything louder than everything else?
i have recently noticed a similar problem i am having with my frankenjazz fretted-the side dots are so small they are practically invisible in the lowly -lit bar we played in last week,and i was having to twist the fretboard up to see where my left hand was supposed to be on one or 2 occasions.....not cool!
i probably should have played the fretless.....i am getting somewhat used to "sliding" into the right note now.
I like the way they did the side dots on my fretless Kala U-Bass. They only offer it with lines, but they also put the side dots on the lines. It's only a 20" scale and if they can fit them that way on such a small neck, it could be done to anything. When I bought my first Hofner V-63 I was impressed that it had big, half-circle-shaped side dots that were really easy to see. Then a couple of weeks later, one came off on my hand and I realized that they were bone-colored paper stickers that the previous owner had added.
