Ric-o-sound: pickups bleeding into other amp?

[coolingitdown]

I really hope this isn't deja vu...

I tried Ric-o-sound the other night for the first time, and I must say, it is awesome! It should give me a lot more flexibility with my tone.

One thing I was curious about, though...when I solo'd the bridge pickup, I noticed that it came through the neck pickup amp (albeit very quietly). I didn't get a chance to see if the neck pickup, when solo'd, would come through the bridge pickup amp.

Is this normal?

It's really no big deal either way. It was so quiet that I don't think the neck pickup amp could be heard over the bridge pickup amp at normal volume.

[blueflamerick]

Happens to me too.

[ram]

Jonathan, I believe this is correct. I don't think it is a totally isolated stereo set up... I believe it was explained a while back somewhere in the Forum but I can't recall what the technical reason was. I do know that I have driven a couple of unaware sound guys crazy using ROS... I'd switch to one pick up or the other and they'd be wondering where the signal went from the unused pup. Sometimes funny when I switched back and......

[cjj]

Yes, this is something that can happen. Why?

<Techno-Geek Warning>
When two wires travel near each other they will have both capacitive and inductive coupling between them. The longer the cable, the more coupling. So, if there is a signal on one and nothing on the other, the undriven line can pickup a small amount of the signal from the other.

This is exactly what happens in a stereo cable since there are 2 wires running near each other. Now, depending on how the cable is manufactured, this coupling may be very small, or fairly large. Generally higher quality cables will have better shielding between the two stereo conductors.

Now, the real reason this happens is that RIC didn't really handle the pickup switching quite right. When you "turn off" a pickup with the selector, it leaves the unused cable unconnected, which allows the undriven wire to pick up a signal. The "proper" way to do this would be to short out the unused line, which would make the level of the coupled signal essentially zero. But that would be difficult to do and still have the "Standard" jack work too.

Bottom line? It happens, but as you noted, the level is so low that you'd probably never notice it if the other amp was up at a normal volume...
</Techno-Geek Wanring>

[coolingitdown]

OK, glad to know there is nothing wrong with my whole setup! Thanks for all the advice and technical knowledge. It really helps!

And I'm really looking forward to delving further into Ric-o-Sound! Such an awesome feature!

I'm currently using my Carvin bass rig (1x15 and 2x10, 600 watt head) for the neck pickup and a Vox guitar amp with built-in fuzz for the bridge pickup, cap engaged. The first rig is bi-amped, so all my lows go through the 15, my mids go through the 10's, and the highs go through the Vox. I intend to run some other effects through the Vox as well, so I can run effects on the high end while still having a good fundamental bass sound underneath.

Should be amazing!

[Seans]

I found the same thing, so I rewired my 4001, one jack, one pickup, it means two leads and using volume to isolate, but the increase in signal strength is quite amazing, a very real pure sound.

[johnhall]

Now, the real reason this happens is that RIC didn't really handle the pickup switching quite right. When you "turn off" a pickup with the selector, it leaves the unused cable unconnected, which allows the undriven wire to pick up a signal. The "proper" way to do this would be to short out the unused line, which would make the level of the coupled signal essentially zero. But that would be difficult to do and still have the "Standard" jack work too.

It's not a matter of "right" or "proper" but one of design expedience. Adding the necessary contacts to so this would:

1) make the switch quite a bit harder to push
2) increase the complexity, introducing more elements that could fail
3) probably double or triple the cost of the switch, especially since it would likely be custom

Given the very small number of people that ever use ROS and and the even smaller number that care about some bleed through, it would be the right and proper design as it is, in my opinion.

[cjj]

Now, the real reason this happens is that RIC didn't really handle the pickup switching quite right. When you "turn off" a pickup with the selector, it leaves the unused cable unconnected, which allows the undriven wire to pick up a signal. The "proper" way to do this would be to short out the unused line, which would make the level of the coupled signal essentially zero. But that would be difficult to do and still have the "Standard" jack work too.

It's not a matter of "right" or "proper" but one of design expedience. Adding the necessary contacts to so this would:

1) make the switch quite a bit harder to push
2) increase the complexity, introducing more elements that could fail
3) probably double or triple the cost of the switch, especially since it would likely be custom

Given the very small number of people that ever use ROS and and the even smaller number that care about some bleed through, it would be the right and proper design as it is, in my opinion.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, though I didn't explain it as well. And it's probably true from a guitar design perspective, RIC's way is the "right" or "proper" way to do it. But from a signal propagation/system design perspective, unterminated lines into high impedance receivers is a definite no-no. Of course, that's just my Techno-Geekiness coming through, and as I said (or tried to anyway) it shouldn't be a problem, even for people who use Ric-O-Sound on a regular basis...

[coolingitdown]

+1.

I didn't really even see the bleed through as much of a concern. Just something that makes you go "hmmm..."

When all is said and done, the amount of sound that bleeds from one pickup to the opposite pickup's amp will never be heard in a live performance scenario (and likely not on a recording either), so why worry?

[bluewhale]

I'm currently using my Carvin bass rig (1x15 and 2x10, 600 watt head) for the neck pickup and a Vox guitar amp with built-in fuzz for the bridge pickup, cap engaged. The first rig is bi-amped, so all my lows go through the 15, my mids go through the 10's, and the highs go through the Vox. I intend to run some other effects through the Vox as well, so I can run effects on the high end while still having a good fundamental bass sound underneath.

That sounds like a fun rig.

Have you tried not bi-amping the Carvin part of it, letting both the 1x15 and 2x10 handle the full output of the neck pickup?

[coolingitdown]

Have you tried not bi-amping the Carvin part of it, letting both the 1x15 and 2x10 handle the full output of the neck pickup?

I can't say that I have. It's definitely something I will have to try on my new tone quest. Whichever way sounds better will win. I always bi-amped the signal because I figured a 15 would better handle lows, and the 10's would be better suited for mids.

Unfortunately, the Vox does need a little bit of help right now, so the full rig is not up and running at full capacity just yet. But it should be soon!

[jdogric12]

Have you tried not bi-amping the Carvin part of it,

Bi-amping = bi-winning!

[cjj]

+1!

[gareth]

This has driven me to the edge of sanity more than once over the years. Mind you, that's a short trip these days.

Clearly, it hasn't driven me far enough to actually find out what was going on.

Now I can relax secure in the knowledge that it's meant to be that way

I would think that a simple home built fix then would be to replace the standard RIC wiring with more expensive, better shielded type. It probably wouldn't eliminate it completely, but it might reduce it to negligible levels.

[coolingitdown]

I find it to be at negligible levels already. It was just a curiosity I had.

You're welcome to disagree, of course!