Bass Rigs and Gigging/Recording With Them

[rickenbrother]

I've taken this from the "Post of picture of you PLAYING your ric" thread in the Rickenbacker Basses forum to start this new thread:

Who else beside Joshua and I have LDS cabs here in the RRF?

What's your configuration Jeff? Mine's a 15 + 6 ("fEarful") design from TalkBass. Amazing deep lows and clear highs. No tweeter.

Jeffrey knows I've become interested in possibly getting a LDS cab. I'm thinking I'd like one with 4, 5 or 6 eight inch speakers, if they make 8's that have neodymium magnets. I'd like to get more feedback on the sound of their cabs. NO HORN TWEETER! Horn tweeters in bass cabs?! BLECCCCH!

Mine sounds awesome. Don is a great builder and the fEarful designs are geared to clear, deep sound. After shipping it cost me $617... worth every penny, IMO. Don Oatman (the builder) is pretty backlogged right now and eventually moving to Seattle. Definitely don't waste your time with a nasty tweeter, my 6.5'' mid driver goes up to 7 kHz no problem, and the majority of my signal stops cold around 5-6 kHz.

To me, the fEarful 15/6 design is far superior to any combination of 10s and 15s alone.

I'm thinking of revamping my rig with a Markbass LMII or LMIII and possibly a LDS cab. I want great sound but light weight gear! Has to be versatile. I play in a blues band. I may have a second band in the works that will play anything from progressive rock to metal to classic and new hard rock and heavy blues (If my friend Reuben and I can put it together). There's also my Rickenbrothers/Glendora's side project with Rich and Paulie where we play anything from new wave to power pop to OZZY!
What's your favorite bass amp? What's your favorite bass cab or what's favorite bass combo.
Please state good reasons why, not because you like it because you bought it. What how about gigging or recording with your gear? What issues do you see and how do we get around this?
My favorite bass head to date is the SWR SM-400. Yes I own this head. I bought it new about 21 years ago. Never an issue. I've changed the preamp tube a couple of times. It seen countless gigs and rehearsals on both USA coasts It's taken a couple of falls in it's rack case (closed and sealed). It makes any cab that can handle it sound great. I can easily dial in any tone I want. Still going strong, but I wonder how much longer it will be before the ol' girl needs a trip to the repair shop that might cost me close to as much as buying LMII, GK MB500, Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 or similar amp.
My favorite sounding cab: The SWR Henry 8 x 8. It's got all the attributes I want in the tone; thick low end, growl, clarity, punch, volume and quick response. I don't own one of these. I'd love to, but the thought of grunting one of these around late at night after a gig is unpleasant. I want a light weight cab like that! Funny thing though, the Henry Jr. 4 x8 didn't sound the same but smaller. It sounded thin and puny. I do miss the SWR Goliath II 4 x 10 cab that I had, but it was 90 lbs. not nearly as heavy as the Henry 8 x 8 and I was tired of grunting it around late at night. The Henry 8 x8 is 100 lbs and more cumbersome than the Goliath II.
My least favorite sounding cabs: Markbass. I've played through John Hall's and Ross Hansen's LMII though non Markbass cabs and they sounded great, but the Markbass cabs just don't do it for me. Don't mean to bash them, they're just not for me.
I hate horn tweeters in cabinets. I'd prefer to have a driver or drivers of the same size that will cover the whole frequency response, just like in the old days! Why? Okay you have a woofer or woofers in your cab, then you have tweeters or a mid driver covering the higher frequencies....Now you're at a gig and the sound man mic's your cab and doesn't take a direct signal. The soundman ONLY mic's one woofer. How do the highs get to the PA? I've had this experience many times. As a matter of fact that's how I went through the PA at my most recent gig. It's fine with me, I keep the tweeter off. But for those that use it what do you do in that situation?
Chris Squire and Geddy Lee never needed tweeters for their highs. Neither have I. If I'm looking to get that snarly overdriven treble bite with my Rick, I'd rather hear the woofer(s) grinding it all out.

[cassius987]

I'm thinking of revamping my rig with a Markbass LMII or LMIII and possibly a LDS cab. I want great sound but light weight gear! Has to be versatile. I play in a blues band. I may have a second band in the works that will play anything from progressive rock to metal to classic and new hard rock and heavy blues (If my friend Reuben and I can put it together). There's also my Rickenbrothers/Glendora's side project with Rich and Paulie where we play anything from new wave to power pop to OZZY!

I like the LMIII a lot, and obviously LDS but saying "LDS cab" could mean anything. Don just does custom work, although he does seem to specialize in lightweight, durable stuff. So you'll have to hunt down someone with something similar in terms of construction to what you are wanting to get ideas.

What's your favorite bass amp? What's your favorite bass cab or what's favorite bass combo.
Please state good reasons why, not because you like it because you bought it. What how about gigging or recording with your gear? What issues do you see and how do we get around this?

I'm really satisfied with my TC Classic450 because of the reasonable price I paid for something that is light and has all the features I want on an amp, and nothing more. The compressor is very useful, the EQ is voiced exactly how I want (vintage voicing, octaves from 200 Hz to 1.6 kHz, shelving exterior & centered interior), the TubeTone is amazingly useful as well and I didn't expect it to sound so authentic to the real deal. My new fEarful 15/6 cab (by LDS) is my favorite in this area too, and I've tried many cabs over the years (and owned five before this one, all various iterations of your basic woofers). The reason the 15/6 is different in my opinion is, first of all, the woofer it uses for the 15'' is simply one of the best available on the market and really "visualizes" even the lowest notes better than most woofers I have played through. So the low end is very, very solid without any need for assistance. Secondly, the 6.5'' driver handles the highs so much better than any woofer I have ever played through and really brings them to life, without the harshness of a tweeter. It's a great "porridge just right" kind of thing for me. Using an attenuator it's easy to dial in how much of the highs you want. The 15'', all on its own, handles lots of genres and 550W of power. I am thinking of having Don some day make a matching 15'' only enclosure as an addition to get down to 4 ohms and a little more "boom" for big venues. Perhaps the greatest thing about this cab those is how extremely loud it gets without much power. It's easy to cover a medium-sized bar without any support. Finally, the cab is only 50 lbs.

I hate horn tweeters in cabinets. I'd prefer to have a driver or drivers of the same size that will cover the whole frequency response, just like in the old days! Why? Okay you have a woofer or woofers in your cab, then you have tweeters or a mid driver covering the higher frequencies....Now you're at a gig and the sound man mic's your cab and doesn't take a direct signal. The soundman ONLY mic's one woofer. How do the highs get to the PA? I've had this experience many times. As a matter of fact that's how I went through the PA at my most recent gig. It's fine with me, I keep the tweeter off. But for those that use it what do you do in that situation?

I would challenge you to play through a cab similar to mine and dismiss the mid driver the same way you have dismissed tweeters (I agree with you about tweeters). As for highs and being miced, I have never been in a situation where my cab was miced and a DI was not also taken from the head. So it kind of becomes a moot point. Also, in the case of my LDS cab, the cab has such a long-distance "throw" that the coverage seems to be very great without any support in the first place. The only people I worry about not hearing me without PA help are the people way in the back playing pool, and I know they'll still be hearing the critical part, the stuff the woofer is kicking out.

I was getting tones last night at my gig that I have never heard come out of a 4x10 or 2x15 (or 2x12, or what have you). It's just a matter of frequency response. As a bassist I often don't care much above 2 kHz what's going on with my signal, so in that case woofers are all I need. But in smaller bands I need to fill up more sound and take more "sonic responsibility" as it were and a 6.5'' mid driver that can get me up to 7 kHz without getting nasty like a tweeter is essential for that. I must also say the mid driver "visualizes" the mids in my signal a lot better than the woofer alone.

If I can get some recordings of this cab I will. If you want to know more about the fEarful 15/6 there's a lot about it on TalkBass. I would say its main strengths are the specific woofer that is used and the elegance with which it synergizes the woofer and the mid driver.

[rickenbrother]

Joshua, I wouldn't have much of problem with a mid driver in a cab, I would probably like it. But again, how do you get it's voice to the PA if your only signal to the PA is mic'ing a woofer? I wasn't surprised that the soundman did that at my most recent gig. It's happened several times before. I never cared if that was the situation since I keep the tweeters off. Besides, I'll never tell a soundman what he should do. I learned that lesson a very long time ago!

[cassius987]

Well like I said I've never seen that setup (mic only and no direct signal) so the problem has never occurred to me. One idea would be to take the approach the Beatles did on some recordings and put a bit more distance between the mic and the cab to capture a wider field of sound and get some "natural compression" (but that last bit might be hocus pocus, I don't know).

Honestly, the drum mics were picking me up last night, way more than anyone expected. I don't think it's a huge issue unless you're playing a very large venue in which case they are almost undoubtedly equipped to set you up with two mics for your cab.

I totally agree about working WITH your soundmen and soundwomen! They have a tough job.

[jps]

An important question, Joey, do you primarily rely on PA support to carry your sound in any venue you play such that the cabinet on stage acts basically as a monitor for you and your bandmates? Do you sometimes require the cabinet to cover the room with no PA support?

[jps]

In response to Joshua's question to me about my LDS cabinets, I have two different LDS cabs, the first one (286) I had Don make was a collaboration of ideas and concepts. A popular configuration of Don's is a 2-8 cabinet with long throw 8" drivers in it. I wanted a vertically aligned design that included a 18Sound 6ND410 6½"mid/high driver to augment the 2 8" Ciare NDC8-3 NEO drivers, all of which are truly lined up on one vertically aligned plane The Ciare drivers we went with are a bit heavy but they are like Mil spec quality speakers we wanted to try out. The cabinet is compact but with Don's great build the cab weights around 51 lbs,; tonally it is studio monitor like minus the extreme high end, and can handle 600 watts rms at 4Ω thermally. Big venues without PA support is not it's forté, but it's amazing neutrality makes all my basses sound like they should, using my Markbass F1 amp. The cab weights 51 lbs. and is 27"H x 14 W x 16"D.

The newest LDS cabinet I got coming home from GilFest® last September; I met with Don so as not to have to have it packed up and shipped, given it's size, 60 lbs., 36"H x 18"H x 6"D. This 2126 model has two Eminence 3012LF drivers and the same 18Sound 6½ mid/high driver; these two cabinets have a similar sound from around 1200Hz on up but the bottom end is different. The 2126 has a slightly woollier tone that I think I have tracked down to some lower side panel resonances that I will brace someday to minimize it, but some judicious EQing can help. The bottom end of the 2126 is awesome with those two 3012LF drivers! It is deep and smooth down to a G below a normal five string bass' B string.

[BAD RONBO, KiLLeR DWaRfS]

An important question, Joey, do you primarily rely on PA support to carry your sound in any venue you play such that the cabinet on stage acts basically as a monitor for you and your bandmates? Do you sometimes require the cabinet to cover the room with no PA support?

interesting to note the P.A. relied heavily on my rig to support the P.A. ! ( i played at a slightly elevated volume level, doncha know, eh ?) at one show we actually powered the P.A. system with my svt's when their house power amps blew. i then ran direct thru the monitors for that gig.( "hail the SVT !)

[T.A.R.]

This thread is going to be a great help! I'm deciding what to put together for my rig. I still have my Marshall major and a Fender twin 12 cab let over from back in the day. Hmm what next?

[rickenbrother]

An important question, Joey, do you primarily rely on PA support to carry your sound in any venue you play such that the cabinet on stage acts basically as a monitor for you and your bandmates? Do you sometimes require the cabinet to cover the room with no PA support?

If the band has played at parties, then my amp is not just my monitor, it's what the audience hears. I've learned from many years of gigging at a PA supported venue, if anyone in the band plays too loud, the soundman will take usually take them out of the mix, whether they know it or not. The horn tweeter thing is not an issue for me. My point is, I'd just like to know what others think about having a component in their rigs that at PA supported venues, the audience will not hear. I've seen bass cabs of major acts at large venues have their cabs (with horn tweeters) mic'ed at a woofer and I'd always thought to myself,"So what good is that tweeter to the audience"? Maybe most don't care or have it occur to them, but I hate having to pay extra for a component like a horn tweeter in a cab that I'm not going to use!

[jps]

Horns/tweeters are not needed, I have gotten all the high end I have ever wanted from any cabinet I have owned over the years. The 18Sound mid/high driver sounds just fine and has plenty of high end to do away with a tweeter. I have found that the Ciare 8" drivers sound great all by themselves with the 6½" rolled down with the L-Pad, so placing a mic in front of just the Ciare is a very doable thing for sound reinforcement needs. If requested, Don can have a crossover made with a bypass switch so you can run the LF drivers fullrange and take the mid driver out of the equation altogether.

Next time you are in Cleveland stop by and check out the 286. Talk to Don, he can build you whatever you need taking into account how you plan to use the cabinet/s. As Joshua mentioned, LDS is a true custom builder as he really does not make "stock" products.

[jps]

I'd just like to know what others think about having a component in their rigs that at PA supported venues, the audience will not hear.

I think I have just about given up on the audience hearing what I hear on stage, so I am happy that I like my onstage sound. Unfortunately, the Fender sound seems to have set some sort of standard by which most sound droids adhere to; sometimes I think they have glued the controls on the bass channel of their mixers down. All they seem to ask of me is if it is loud enough in the monitors if I have that luxury. Tone? Don't ask. I do have to say that, on occasion, I have been able to get them to actually move a knob or two.

[BAD RONBO, KiLLeR DWaRfS]

keep in mind a lot of these major concert acts have empty heads (not the one on their bodies...but who knows for sure, ) and cabs for the look of large power and show. they use large side fills and huge front floor monitors to have the band's sound in. i first saw this with cheap trick in '77 where the sound city cabs had large white lights mounted in them. next, i went back stage (on the stage behind the back line) for kiss in '83 and saw they were all empty heads and cabs and gene had a lonely svt head on a roadcase with a nady wireless transmitter sitting on top. this got me thinking how much i was duped all these years. so when i saw the kiss alive tour in the mid '70's, that whole backline was most likely empty, save for a few cabs and heads ? i must add that when we toured with maiden in '88, their whole backline was active as well as massive sidefills and floor monitors,( which they were gracious enought to allow us full use of ) . nothing fake about them !

later when the dwarfs were touring LA in the early '90's, we needed to rent a bass rig for me to do the palace club. stopped in to S.I.R. rentals and low and behold i saw vast amounts of empty ampeg and marshall heads and cabs supplied by the original manufacturers for rent.

i'm proud to say i have always used my backline as a hearing aid,(for myself and...others, ) ...not for show of strength.

[rickenbrother]

keep in mind a lot of these major concert acts have empty heads (not the one on their bodies...but who knows for sure, ) and cabs for the look of large power and show.

Yeah, like that incredible wall of backline speakers at Van Halen concerts!

[coolhandjjl]

Reminds me of a funny story about Jimmy Page (as told to me, so I'm sure I have it only sort of correct).

He showed up early to check on the stage set up, and was disappointed by the cabs he saw for him. He plugged in, and complained even more. He rants around quipping "these stacks are not tall enough, not big enough, etc., etc....." The event promoter and sound guy don't know what to do at this late stage of the game. Jimmy storms out. The sound guys go out and find some cardboard, big refrigerator boxes, black cloth, whatever they can find, and make fake bigger cabs to slip over the existing ones. Jimmy comes back, plugs in, and states "Now that sounds more like it!"

[FretlessOnly]

Regarding soundguys and direct/micing - I think over the past three or fours years, every soundguy has run direct rather than a mic. My GK 700RB-II has a pre- or post-EQ switch for the DI, so I can send my stage settings to the board using post-EQ. The pre-EQ sends a flat signal, which is fine if you know what the soundguy is planing to do, but it typically only takes me about 15 seconds at sound check time, so my post-EQ sound must be working.

I use the GK 700RB-II with a GK Neo 2x12 with a tweeter. The tweeter and woofer both have high cuts and I run the rig in bi-amp mode, which means that a separate amp pwers the tweeter at 50W and it's unaffected by the amount I drive the woofers. So, in addition to 4-band active EQ, I have tweeter and woofer high attenuation, a 5-string switch and 4 volume knobs. I typically run the tweeter only at about 20%; just for a little clarity - even if only I hear it, it helps my mental state on stage.

I recently purchased an Avatar 1x12 from Chris D. here and it came with both a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm speaker. I've used that with the GK rig w/ the 8 ohm to run the whole rig at 4 ohms; the 700 pushes 480W at 4 ohms; 320 at 8 ohms. Currently, I have the 4 ohm speaker in there and I've been using it for RIC-o-Sound. I bought an inexpensive but nice Little Mark 250 to push the 4 ohm cab and I use this on the bridge pickup and the GK on the neck toaster. Sweet is one way to put it.

I do like Markbass from what I know of the Little Mark 250. Unlike the contour on the GK (which I rarely use), I do often use the VPF, which seems to act like contour, on the Markbass. I see no use whatsoever for the VLE, which seems to just cut highs (not to mention soul and spirit) and render the sound muddy.