Peter Buck's Alternate Stringing

[Bucksstudent]

Patrick,

I believe you're incorrect about the Rickenbacker 12-string Peter Buck used in the mid-eighties and on "Fables." Check out the Raleigh 1985 live footage on You Tube where Peter plays his Jetglo 360/12 on "Talk About the Passion," "So. Central Rain" and "Good Advices." You can get a clear view of the twelve-string headstock and you can really hear those octave strings chiming out. (It also sounds like Peter is playing through a chorus pedal, most likely the Rockman Mitch mentioned.) I have yet to see any footage of Peter with 370/12 in hand.

As for contacting Jerry Boys, the engineer who recorded "Fables," I've sent him an e-mail from his website but received no response. Too bad, because his memories of what went on in the studio with Joe Boyd could be invaluable.

Robert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2mp_WX7UE

Yes, I have seen this, but there WAS footage of Peter on t hat same tour with a 370/12.

And as I understand, Peter didn't have many pedals in the early days. Jefferson Holt mentioned that he has a TS-9 on the Reckoning tour, but he had no idea how to use it. On Murmur and Reckoning, there was a Leslie Speaker used for chorus sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZkOWg_k ... re=related

Here, however, you can hear a chorus pedal, as you stated. I've heard that he used anything from some big Ibanez pedal to a Polychorus.

However, we don't have Joe Boyd on board to tell you what Peter used in the studio for Fables - I doubt Joe would have cared anyway.

But I do not believe he used a 12 string Ric on Fables at all. Maps and Legend, Life and How to Live It, Green Grow The Rushies, Kohoutek, Auctioneer, and Good Advices sound like double tracked guitars and chorus. Joe Boyd was working with Richard Thompson around that time, and Richard used a lot of chorus on his guitar sound in the eighties, and there was double tracking here and there. The only twelve strings I have seen him use frequently are the 370/12 and Danes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kASt096u ... re=related

You'll notice here that Peter is using a Tele and Chorus (In the style of Andy Summers).

But if you come up with some evidence to the contrary that he actually used a Ric 360/12 on Fables, like an interview or picture in the studio, I'll gladly add it to my arsenal.

[Folkie]

Patrick,

I don't have any photos of the studio in London where "Fables" was recorded, nor do I have any interviews to bolster my argument that Peter's Rick 12 was a major presence on the album. All I have are a very refined set of ears, and the knowledge that comes from listening to an entire album over and over for twenty-five years (often with a guitar in hand).

I would bet my life's savings (and my whole guitar and amp collection) that at least five of the final songs on "Fables" were recorded with at least one electric 12-string track (either Peter's Rick 360/12 or that 370/12 RM you mentioned) and that many were multi-tracked. Those songs are "Maps and Legends," "Life and How to Live it," "Green Grow the Rushes," "Good Advices," and "Wendell Gee." (There also appears to be a brief 12-string lick on "Old Man Kensey," but I haven't included it in my list because the song is mostly bass and 6-string.) Yes, "Can't Get There from Here" is a great example of a six-string run through a chorus pedal. But if you listen closely enough to "Maps and Legends" and "Life and How to Live it," you'll hear those octave and unison strings chiming out (you'll also hear that the fundamental string is the low course rather than the high octave: definitely not a Fender XII!). "Green Grow the Rushes" is the quintessential 12-string track on the album and (I believe) in the R.E.M. catalog. I have NEVER heard that kind of chime and shimmer from a 6-string run through a chorus pedal (no matter how many times the guitar was tracked). It sounds to me like either a 360/12 or a 370/12 run through the Rockman Chorus and Sustainer and then double-tracked. Listen carefully whenever Peter strikes an octave pair, and you'll hear the low string first. On "Good Advices" Peter layers many 12-string tracks to achieve a lush, haunting sound. Pay attention to how the single note melody lines chime out. And "Wendell Gee" is built off of one 12-string guitar track which meshes beautifully with the banjo solo between verses.

A brief listen to "The Athens Demos" on the deluxe version of "Fables" supports my contention that Peter used an electric 12-string liberally on the final versions of the five tracks I mentioned. Just listen to the difference in sound between the demos and the final takes. The demos sound pale and lifeless without those octave and unison strings chiming out (and without the additional effect of Peter's chorus pedal on "Green Grow the Rushes").

As for the existing 1985 footage of Peter with 370/12 in hand, I've never seen any of it on You Tube. Could you send me a link so that I can have a look at it?

This post was meant to be revisionary rather than argumentative. It seems to me that if you take a closer listen to "Fables" (and the Athens Demos) you'll agree with me that Peter's Rick 12 was an essential part of the band's sound circa 1985. Whether "Fables" was tracked with a 360/12 or a 370/12 RM is a question only Joe Boyd or Jerry Boys or perhaps even Peter Buck himself can answer.

Robert

[electrofaro]

The only twelve strings I have seen him use frequently are the 370/12 and Danes.

I'm glad he doesn't use the Danelectro anymore, they look like toyguitars - he used it during the "Reveal" period a lot.

Anyway, PLB has used quite a few 12-strings in the years I've seen him live. I've become a fan with "Out of Time"...

A Jetglo 360/12 (e.g. at Robyn Hitchcock gigs in UK.)
The MID 660/12 (e.g. at Minus 5 and Baseball Project gigs.)
The Jetglo 620/12,
and last but not least a cherry Epiphone Riviera 12-string (at Tired Pony gigs).

I'm with Robert in regard to 'Fables' and 12-strings - there's definitely one there in the mix.

[Bucksstudent]

I disagree, and this is coming from a fan who was obsessed with Peter (Obviously) in his early teens, when he had nothing else to do with his time.

I own the demos; I hear a six string guitar.

[electrofaro]

Obsessed is the word to focus on indeed... I'm out of here...

[Folkie]

It's very possible that the electric 12-string tracks on "Green Grow the Rushes" were recorded with heavy studio compression rather than a chorus pedal. Also, I forgot to mention that there is definitely at least one acoustic 12-string track on "Kohoutek" and possibly one or several electric 12-string tracks buried in the mix. With so many overdubs it's just hard to tell. Finally, I want to correct what I said about "Wendell Gee": there are clearly at least two electric 12-string tracks on that one.

Robert

[electrofaro]

At Tired Pony gigs PLB used an Epi Riviera 12-string, but at SXSW he used an Eastwood 12-string. Pictures courtesy of Lucy K. again!

P1030826r.jpg

P1030855r.jpg

P1030855x.jpg

[Bucksstudent]

It's very possible that the electric 12-string tracks on "Green Grow the Rushes" were recorded with heavy studio compression rather than a chorus pedal. Also, I forgot to mention that there is definitely at least one acoustic 12-string track on "Kohoutek" and possibly one or several electric 12-string tracks buried in the mix. With so many overdubs it's just hard to tell. Finally, I want to correct what I said about "Wendell Gee": there are clearly at least two electric 12-string tracks on that one.

Robert

No, I listened to the album several times, and even the demos several times. I disagree that he used an electric twelve string on Fables.

However, I was making my own Remastered version of Life's Rich Pageant yesterday (took all afternoon) and suddenly noticed, thanks to my changes to the mix, that there were several tracks with electric 12 - Cuyahoga's chorus's beginning and bridge, Fall On Me's bridge (I think), Superman's bridge, and maybe a few others I cannot remember at the moment.

But I doubt Peter could afford TWO Ric twelve strings until AFTER Fables. Considering they were a band who lived off cheese sandwiches on those early tours...

I'm disappointed that Peter and Mike uses Eastwood products; I have found them to be... Substandard, and their customer service lackluster.

[Folkie]

Have you considered that Pageant's "I Believe" might have at least one 12-string track?

[Bucksstudent]

Have you considered that Pageant's "I Believe" might have at least one 12-string track?

I'm sure it does. It's just that none of them have one all through the sound - Just parts here and there.

[analogpackrat]

It's very possible that the electric 12-string tracks on "Green Grow the Rushes" were recorded with heavy studio compression rather than a chorus pedal. Also, I forgot to mention that there is definitely at least one acoustic 12-string track on "Kohoutek" and possibly one or several electric 12-string tracks buried in the mix. With so many overdubs it's just hard to tell. Finally, I want to correct what I said about "Wendell Gee": there are clearly at least two electric 12-string tracks on that one.

Robert

No, I listened to the album several times, and even the demos several times. I disagree that he used an electric twelve string on Fables.

Well, consider that some of us have also listened to this album, perhaps hundreds of times since it was released. "Maps and Legends" does not sound like there are only multi-tracked six strings with chorus. There's a 12-er in the mix. The "whoaaaaa" part from 1:30-1:40 fairly screams Rick 12. "Life and How to Live It" also sounds like it has a 12 on one of the two "rhythm" guitar tracks (other than the one playing the main riff). "Old Man Kensey" sounds like a 6 doubled with a 12 which is something Peter has done since Murmur. The main riff in "Green Grow the Rushes" sounds like a 12 with added chorus to me. "Kohoutek" has to have a 12. Listen to the main riff starting at 0:16! Maybe there's chorus on there, too, but that will NOT get you the thick jangle by itself. At 1:37 on "Auctioneer" is another obvious 12-string guitar part. The loud, overdriven main riff in this song may also be a 12. "Good Advices" is another classic 12-string song. The main guitar track is clearly a 12.

But I doubt Peter could afford TWO Ric twelve strings until AFTER Fables. Considering they were a band who lived off cheese sandwiches on those early tours...

Maybe he ate cheese sandwiches so he could afford the equipment he wanted to use to make his art. Or he could have rented (or used what the studio had) one for the studio sessions. There are all kinds of possibilities. As many of of us here know, once you play a Rick 12 you really want one. Peter had access to Mitch Easter's guitars on the early records. Clearly he liked the sound. IF he wanted to use one in the studio I'm certain he would have found a way.

We now know that you had(?) a Rick 6 and are selling it or have already. Have you ever played a Rick 12? Just curious.

[Sweden]

And as I understand, Peter didn't have many pedals in the early days. Jefferson Holt mentioned that he has a TS-9 on the Reckoning tour, but he had no idea how to use it. On Murmur and Reckoning, there was a Leslie Speaker used for chorus sounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZkOWg_k ... re=related
Here, however, you can hear a chorus pedal, as you stated. I've heard that he used anything from some big Ibanez pedal to a Polychorus.

As regards chorus pedals, the Ibanez UE400 multipedal which he still uses in seen in live footage as early as 1984 (and maybe even earlier), so it would seem odd that he would not at all have used it in the studio for Fables. This is of course the chorus sound clearly heard in many mid-80's live clips, and he also used the compression on that board. Later years have seen the phaser being used live for the chorus of New Test Leper and a few solos around 2005 (Aftermath for example).

Having said this on the chorus issue, I still lean towards siding with Robert/Folkie on the 12-string use, but first hand info or photos would be nice.

[Sweden]

At Tired Pony gigs PLB used an Epi Riviera 12-string, but at SXSW he used an Eastwood 12-string. Pictures courtesy of Lucy K. again!

I am fairly sure it has been Eastwood all along with Tired Pony, but would need to double check footage. The Letterman performance was the Eastwood in any case.
He did have an Epiphione 12 when playing with Robyn Hitchcock back in 2007 and there about though, but later switched to Epiphone. Robyn H has an endorsement deal with Eastwood, which also seems to have lead to Scott Mc Caughey using a bit of Eastwoods (including a Sidejack whn playing with R.E.M.) and Peter also getting into those.

I think it's actually really cool that peter has mixed his Rick 12 use with 12's from Danelectro and Eastwood.

[electrofaro]

I am fairly sure it has been Eastwood all along with Tired Pony, but would need to double check footage.

What's it with people don't believing what Gibsonees say these days? It's an Epi for at least a couple, if not all, of the Tired Pony shows in the UK:

Obvious give-aways: Epiphone E on scratchplate, Epiphone shape of headstock, and last but not least, the name on the headstock...

There were some US radio Youtube videos where he used it as well, but as I don't save youtube videos so can't find them, if they're still there.

[Sweden]

I am fairly sure it has been Eastwood all along with Tired Pony, but would need to double check footage.

What's it with people don't believing what Gibsonees say these days? It's an Epi for at least a couple, if not all, of the Tired Pony shows in the UK:
Obvious give-aways: Epiphone E on scratchplate, Epiphone shape of headstock, and last but not least, the name on the headstock...
There were some US radio Youtube videos where he used it as well, but as I don't save youtube videos so can't find them, if they're still there.

Haha OK, that is indeed an Epiphone... Here it's the Eastwood though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQQsv82U3A

And same thing at the NYC show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_bN1Dh ... re=related

Pretty odd that he's switching between the two though, and almost like it was a US/UK thing.