Intonated 12 string with 6 saddle bridge!

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:19 pm

John Ashfield asks: "Has anyone noticed a differnece in tone / sound between the 12 saddle and 6 saddle?"

Yepper, and here's my theory. References to "the quintessential RIC 12 string sound" and metallurgical composition of the saddles notwithstanding, a 6-saddle bridge will not properly intonate a 12-string guitar. However, it will provide a different sound, and it's a sound that many prefer. The difference is a "fatter" sound, and it's the result of two strings that are nominally playing the same note being slightly out of tune. It's very similar to an old rock trick that's been used for years: play the root on an open string, and double it on the next string:

Play an E like this:
E -0-
B -0-
G -9-
D -9-
A -7-
E -0-
[/size]
or an A like this:
E -0-
B -5-
G -6-
D -7-
A -0-
E -x-[/size]

Apply a little vibrato to the doubled root, and it sounds a whole lot "heavier". Some of us with 12-string guitars that have 12-saddle bridges deliberately "detune" the guitars to get this sound by intonating the octave string to the fundamental instead to itself. As you move up the neck, the fundamental/octave pairs go slightly out of tune (relative to each other), creating a much thicker sound.

It's all a matter of taste - but in its reconciliation of the inherent dichotomy between pure tuning and tempered tuning, it's similar to the underlying principle of the Buzz Feiten system in that "scientific" application gives way to what is pleasing to the ear.

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:58 pm

Interesting. So the 6 saddle is usually out, which gives the guitar it's unique tone.

To intonate the octave strings to the fundamental, wouldnt that place the octave string bridge over to where the fundamental bridge is? Or is it a matter of just moving it a bit closer?

When I had the 6 saddle it was hard to use because the octaves were so out of tune they had audible beats as low as the 3rd fret.

But with the 12 saddle, the guitar doesn't quite have that 12 string sound all the time, it sounds bigger, but that chorusy thing isnt happening.

I guess I could experiment by moving the octave saddles a bit to get the effect?

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:24 pm

OK, I have to experiment, but I've lost the 6 saddle bridge that my 360/12 came with.

Does anyone have one that's already cut, in the SF BAY area that I could buy or trade a pick up for?

wormdiet · Post by **wormdiet** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:08 am

Why bother messing with the intonation screws if you can just detune one string of a course ever so slightly?

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:16 am

First, I should reiterate that the exposition above is my theory.

Second, the phrase "intonating the octave string to the fundamental" isn't very clear. In fact, I'm not sure that it makes any sense at all. Sorry about that. What I meant to say was that some set the intonation on the fundamental strings normally, then adjust the saddles on the octave strings so that the octaves are just slightly out of tune at the 12th fret.

The beats that you noticed with a 6-saddle bridge are exactly what I'm talking about, although your guitar may be an extreme example. Different string sets intonate differently; it may be that you are using strings with a very noticable difference between the octaves and the fundamentals.

Of course, John McKelvy has a good point as well. If your intonation is properly set now, tune the octave strings on the 3rd through 6th courses a couple of cents low and see if you like the change.

ken_j · Post by **ken_j** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:59 am

If you wanted to simulate a 6 saddle bridge using a 12 saddle bridge couldn't you just intonate the six main strings then simply adjust the octave saddles to the same (even) position? It would only cost you your time to prove the direction you want to take.

wormdiet · Post by **wormdiet** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:45 pm

Why bother?

My point is. . . I see nothing gained by setting the intonation more or less permanently out of whack when the same effect can be gained by detuning, but with detuning it's much easier to reverse the change.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:41 pm

Adjusting the intonation and detuning will not provide the same effect. If you adjust the intonation so that the octave string in a course is flat at the 12th fret (as with a 6-saddle bridge), one might presume that the two open strings in a course are in tune, but they drift out of tune as you move up the neck. If the intonation is properly adjusted for both strings in a course (as with a 12-saddle bridge), detuning assures that the two strings will be out of tune everywhere on the neck. Not that one effect is better than the other (or even that either is desirable), but they are different.

wormdiet · Post by **wormdiet** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:26 am

Details, Details