True or False: If you don't like vintage frets...

Drew816 · Post by **Drew816** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:33 pm

...you won't like vintage Rickenbackers? In other words, if you can't play small frets than Rick's probably aren't for you?

I was talking to a buddy of mine who's a guitar broker and he said he loves Ricks but that the tiny original frets make it a challenge to play and if a vintage Rick is refret'ed it dings the value.

Admittedly I'm a big fret fan, 6100's for me. Now I don't expect I'm going to find jumbo's on a vintage Rick but if they are dominated by tiny frets it's something I have to consider pretty strongly.

How often do you see vintage Rick's that have been refret'ed with bigger frets? Value dinged or not, to me if the guitar has the original frets and it's unplayable than it's not something I'm going to be interested in as I want to play. Buying one as an investment I can understand but that's not my world...

Thoughts?

And I'm not trying to ding vintage Rick's, on the contrary I'm trying to learn because I really do WANT one but tiny frets and I do not get along.

Thanks!

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:46 pm

Plenty of vintage Fenders had small frets, too. It sounds like your guitar broker buddy is trying to steer you in a direction that may suit him more than you. You really need to play an instrument for yourself to determine if it will fit your needs, not that of a dealer/seller.

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:57 pm

Drew816 wrote:.....and if a vintage Rick is refret'ed it dings the value.

There have been many discussions on this and many other related issues with old/vintage instruments. Would you rather have a guitar that you can actually play and enjoy, or one with original everything on it but is totally unplayable? Would you buy a Mercedes SSK with it's original tires on it, or original oil in the engine (you mean you actually have to change the oil???

), for example? I wouldn't want to drive it on the highway.

It is dealers that have put the fear of doing anything to an instrument that would possibly cause it to lose value into the public; this seems to be an affliction with vintage instrument dealers, primarily in the guitar segment, as I am pretty certain some valuable old

violins, for example, have had things replaced/repaired over the centuries, such as necks, fingerboards, bridges, etc.

antipodean · Post by **antipodean** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:57 pm

He should check out the frets on a vintage Mosrite....

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:03 pm

This thread is a very interesting discussion ....

Drew816 · Post by **Drew816** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:27 pm

Thanks for the replies and good points so let me clarify. He LoVeS vintage Ric's he's just pointing out something and not trying to sell me in anyone direction. He laughed when I asked because he just sold a '66 365 that had some minor issue a few weeks ago and it went cheap.

He was just noting that they came with small frets and the clear finish on the fretboatd make it tougher to refret and will ding value. He's just noting this from the markets prespective and no sale is being made here by him.

For me I like bigger frets so if adding them is costly and going to ding value then I should probably look for one that's already been re-fretted or it has some other issue that's already dinged it's value so a re-fret won't hurt. In otherwords he was saying if I spend near market value on a great Rick now and I refret I'm loosing two ways; a ding for it not being original anymore and also the $500+ bucks I spend on a refret.

True or not true in your opinions and experience?

I prefer 6100 jumbos on my guitars but can do 6105's just as a point of reference.

He actually advised buying the one I'm looking at if they have a few day return policy because he thought it sounded like a good deal and potential winner...

songdog · Post by **songdog** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:41 pm

jps wrote:Would you rather have a guitar that you can actually play and enjoy, or one with original everything on it but is totally unplayable? ... It is dealers that have put the fear of doing anything to an instrument that would possibly cause it to lose value into the public; this seems to be an affliction with vintage instrument dealers....

+1

Drew, I get the impression you're looking for a guitar to play. I've had a Rick (4001) for a long time, and haven't been shy about changing things I thought would make it play better, including having it refretted with larger frets than the originals. The potential sale value is pretty irrelevant to me, it's not for sale. The real value of a good instrument is the music you can make with it. Find a guitar that feels right and sounds right to you, put the frets you like on it, and play!

paologregorio · Post by **paologregorio** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:20 am

I say if you want to put larger frets on it, go for it. I have an `84 that by the standard measure of "vintage" in years, is a vintage guitar, After the last time I had the frets dressed, the luthier said that the vintage frets are to tiny to be dressed again, when it needs a re-fret, it's going to get a lovely set of medium tall frets, nicely crowned.Medium tall frets are a nice alternative to jumbos (which I am a convert to) for Ricks, because they do the job, but aren't as visibly large. Two of my Ricks already have medium talls, and those are the Ricks I play the most.

Vintage frets aren't better, they're just the only thing that was available at the time. Playing styles and preferences have changed and evolved over the years, Vintage frets are probably the least appealing feature of a vintage guitar; it's the tone and resonance of the wood, the neck profile, and the general appearance, and probably a couple of other things I'm leaving out, that make a vintage guitar so desirable.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:07 pm

jps wrote:Plenty of vintage Fenders had small frets, too. It sounds like your guitar broker buddy is trying to steer you in a direction that may suit him more than you. You really need to play an instrument for yourself to determine if it will fit your needs, not that of a dealer/seller.

Another vintage guy spouting the Gospel on value loss.

Refretting a buzzing Rick should be done to your taste. To my eye, the small frets look best, but bending is limited. Refret it, play it, and if you like the biggies, then refinish the fretboard properly.

Vintage Fenders with maple necks give lie to two Rick myths.

However, if you're into playing Yngwie stuff, you're gonna want a scalloped Strat anyway.

Drew816 · Post by **Drew816** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:51 pm

So a refreted Rick' versus one with original frets doesn't take a value hit? And it's not more complicated refreting a Rick than another rosewood type guitar?

This guy is a known and respected dealer just giving me his experience and opinion and recommending IF going vintage get one that's already taken the value hit. Nothing like spending top dollar then dropping $500+ for a refret and board refinishing and then the guitar decreases in value in the market as it's no longer original. So the contention here is this thinking is wring when it comes to Rick's?

I played two of my guitars that both have smaller frets exclusively for the last few days and as long as there's some frets there I think I'm going to be fine. But when I go to buy I want to know which one I go for value wise...

Thanks!

jps · Post by **jps** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:30 pm

The bottom line is, are you buying it to play or to put in your retirement portfolio? Most of us here are players (more or less

), and we do whatever is needed with our instruments to suit our playing styles. If you need bigger frets to get the job done, then put bigger frets on and not worry about what it may do to any potential value; look at some of the most famous Ricks out there, a lot of them have been modded in some fashion. Some examples would be those owned and played by folks like Paul McCartney Susanna Hoffs, Chris Squire, Paul Weller......, a lot of player instruments that just happened to get famous over time. If you are indeed concerned about future value, which is valid depending on the situation, look for a well used but loved player instrument and go to town, there are many examples of them right here on this very forum. We have some very talented members who can turn such an instrument into the one of your dreams, or just do something as (relatively) simple as a fret job.

Drew816 · Post by **Drew816** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:16 pm

Yes, good words; either find one that doesn't need frets or find one that's already had a fret job or some other issue as to not have to worry about the 'value.'

I'm just getting ready to BUY so I want to know what I should be looking for and a well loved, in need of frets at top dollar axe will cost me twice so that's what I wanted to determine. Sounds like it's not a huge hit in value if the fret job and refin on the neck is done right (if any at all) so that's cool.

Thanks and Happy Playing!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Ricks are nothing like other guitars to refret, and most luthiers cannot, strictly speaking, do a proper factory-style refret job, because the frets are finished differently and because the varnished fretboard is a heck of a lot of work and trouble to get done properly.

A properly done refret on a Rickenbacker is a joy to see and use, and should last decades!

Drew816 · Post by **Drew816** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:31 pm

jingle_jangle wrote:Ricks are nothing like other guitars to refret, and most luthiers cannot, strictly speaking, do a proper factory-style refret job, because the frets are finished differently and because the varnished fretboard is a heck of a lot of work and trouble to get done properly.

A properly done refret on a Rickenbacker is a joy to see and use, and should last decades!

That's what I was told and it's not cheap to do either. So who are the Rick refretting pros? My local guy is a wizard at most guitars and I know if he did a Rick it would be nearly perfect; but it would take 18+ months to get back too!

I'm hoping this will all will be academic but we'll see...

Thanks for the replies and happy playing!

rickaddict · Post by **rickaddict** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:54 am

Paul W can do it!

I had these guys do a re-fret/fretboard refin on a 4001V63 that turned out really well, and I recommended them to a friend that was also very pleased with the results on his 4003S:

http://www.thirdcoastguitar.com/

Unfortunately, you'll have to send your axe to Chi town for the work. They got mine done in something like 4 or 5 weeks.

Both instruments mentioned above did not have neck binding though. I'm not sure if the one you're considering has neck binding or not. They'd probably be able to work with it, but I'm not positive.

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