12 saddle vs 6 saddle?

[larsongs]

I'm wondering about this 6 vs. 12 ? too. I was at a recording session the other night out of town. It seemed like it took forever to get my 360 12 in tune. I finally did but would like to be able to dial it in quicker. Especially when I'm hold everyone up.

What was on George Harrisons?

Glenn

[iiipopes]

What was on George Harrisons?

Six saddle.

[sleepingtiger]

I'm OK with my six saddle.

Tony

[JakeK]

I'm wondering about this 6 vs. 12 ? too. I was at a recording session the other night out of town. It seemed like it took forever to get my 360 12 in tune. I finally did but would like to be able to dial it in quicker. Especially when I'm hold everyone up.

What strings are you using? With TI Flats, Ric standard or Curt Mangan, you should be able to get in tune pretty quickly, but with D'Addario, there are horrible intonation problems, and it's never in tune.

[iiipopes]

What strings are you using? With TI Flats, Ric standard or Curt Mangan, you should be able to get in tune pretty quickly, but with D'Addario, there are horrible intonation problems, and it's never in tune.

The stock D'Addario 12-string set has a plain unison G and some strange gauges otherwise; that's why that set doesn't want to tune up, and it won't intonate on a 6-saddle bridge. But they do carry singles in odd gauges that are readily available. So for my custom set of strings, I do use D'Addario XL singles for my 6-saddle bridge, because I want a lighter feel overall:
9 - 9; 11 1/2 - 11 1/2; 17w or 18w - 8; 24w - 10; 32w - 14; 42w - 22w.

The only pair that needs help with intonation is, of course, the low E pair due to both of them being wound strings, but with different core diameters, hence the need for different compensation for each string at the saddle. That's why I filed my offset bridge saddle for my low E.

[teb]

I have both types. The one that has a twelver needed it and it was a big improvement. It was also installed by Arnquist and strobe-tuned to some sort of "sweetened" tuning. I don't know what the details of that sweetening are, but it worked very nicely since perfectly intonated guitars don't really exist from a mathematical perspective. My other one sounds fine with a six-saddle. I originally bought a 12-saddle for it, but will probably never install it. I set that one up myself by ear and must have gotten lucky. If it ain't broke...

Another very interesting thing that I found a couple years ago was that I could get the guitars tuned using a tuner so that notes were very good up and down the fingerboard, but then certain chords just didn't sound right. What I eventually discovered was that I was bending strings when forming certain chords - only I wasn't bending them side to side, I was bending them over the frets - straight down. I tended to push harder with some fingers than others, especially instances like the low E pair, third fret on a G chord. Being aware of this and making an effort to play with a light touch and avoid "over-gripping" on some chord formations made a big difference in the sound. String diameter also contributed to some extent, as thinner strings can be "bent down" farther before they bottom out on the bubinga.

[Folkie]

Jake,

I have my 330/12 strung with D'Addario XL's and have had no major intonation issues. But I do have a set of Curt Mangan strings on hold for the next restringing.

Robert

[clementc3]

What I eventually discovered was that I was bending strings when forming certain chords - only I wasn't bending them side to side, I was bending them over the frets - straight down.

I believe (but the materials science experts can correct me if I am wrong) that this phenomenon is why we need adjustable bridges to intonate different strings: pressing down on a string to fret it increases the length of the string from the nut to the bridge compared to its length as an open string. The increase in length causes an increase in tension - but just how much the tension increases is the key factor.

If you have an elastic string (one that stretches relatively easily) you can increase its length slightly and its pitch won't be affected much - like plucking a rubber band that is under moderate tension, stretching it 1/32" of an inch more, and plucking it again. However, an inelastic string (like a steel string) will sound noticeably sharper if it is stretched 1/32". Ted's light touch minimizes the stretching and the dis-intonation caused by pressing the string down to the fret.

Classical guitars don't need a compensated or adjustable bridge - their nylon strings are "stretchy" enough that their pitch is not significantly affected by the lengthening caused by fretting a note. Lap steel guitars don't need a compensated or adjustable bridge because there is no depressing and stretching of their strings.

Since a guitar's steel string is much less "stretchable" (I know there is a scientific word for that, I just don't know what it is), its tension is noticeably increased by the lengthening caused by fretting a note - thus, if the 12th fret is exactly halfway between the nut and bridge, fretting a string at the 12th fret results in a noticeably sharp note. So, we push the bridge back by a little bit so that the increased tension (and sharpness) from fretting is offset by increased length, bringing the note back in tune.

A string's stretchiness depends on the diameter of the string as well as the composition of the string (and possibly other factors and dimensions), so the amount of adjustment varies with each string. (However, the mass (weight) of the windings around a wound string probably have negligible affect on the stretchiness which is governed by the core.) If you can match the stretchiness of the unison and octave strings in a pair (which is what those who match the diameters of the plain string and the core of the wound string are achieving) the amount of adjustment for each string should be about the same, and so one saddle for that pair does the job well.

When you throw in the fact that fretted instruments are never perfectly in tune (they are "equal temperament" tuning, like keyboard instruments and unlike violins and fretless basses which can make the minute adjustments to achieve "just temperament" tuning as needed), and the fact that a little bit of disharmony is pleasing to the ear, (like a choir in which every person is singing the same note, but not exactly the same note), 6 saddle bridges can do the job.

That said, I have 12-saddle bridges!

I know there is a lot more science - some articles talk about how the loss of flexibility of strings at distances very close to the bridge affects the "speaking length" of the strings, but I suspect that factor is small - and there are multiple dimensions of elasticity - along a string's length (the major one, I think) but also across its axis (its flexibility) - and I look forward to other comments and corrections.

[clementc3]

Ted's light touch minimizes the stretching and the dis-intonation caused by pressing the string down to the fret.

Oops! I meant "Todd's". Or "teb's". But not "Ted's" - sorry, Todd!

[iiipopes]

I want to address the concept of "perfectly in tune." From reading this, it seems that most folks think about the concept of "perfectly in tune" in a Pythagorean sense, so that each note of a chord lines up with the simple mathematical ratio first described by Pythagoras: octave as 1/2, fifth as 2/3, fourth as 3/4, major third 4/5, minor third 5/6, etc. This system of tuning only works on the Pythagorean "monochord," with music based on one mode with one drone.

Now, equal temperament can be thought of as the mathematical antithesis of Pythagorean tuning, with each note in the octave divided evenly. In Western music, this is defined as 12 semitones per octave, with the pitch of each semitone being 2^1/12 times the prior pitch. As a quick summary, this gives slightly flat fifths, slightly sharp fourths, and significantely sharp major thirds. So the 2nd fret f# in a first position D chord is supposed to wobble a little bit, 2nd fret c# in a first position A chord is supposed to wobble a little bit, etc.

Now, this has nothing to do with the 12-saddle verses 6-saddle debate. This has to do with fundamental music theory. It's just that since the octave is the only "perfect" interval retained as a reference to modern Western music equal temperament, it can be more noticable on a 12-string that is not set up properly.

So, it's all in the definition: by Pythagorean terms, nothing is in tune in any genre of modern music that uses more than one chord in its musical structure. On the other hand, electronic keyboards with computer chip generators that can take the math out to an insane number of digits of resolution are "perfectly" in tune from an equal temperament perspective, but don't necessarily sound "good" to the average ear.

Now, this gets into more bandwidth than can be addressed here, but between these two extremes, especially for keyboard instruments through the years, organs, harpsichords, pianos, etc., many people have come up with various other systems of temperaments that favor some keys at the expense of others: meantone, Young's temperament, quarter-comma, etc. Modern variations of these temperaments are what are probably being referred to above by the posters who talk about their "sweetened" or "modified" intonation settings of the bridges on their guitars.

What do I do? I learn to live with the bright, wobbly major thirds of equal temperament as best I can, since I play in a variety of ensembles which have horns, keys, guitars, etc., all sorts of combinations of instruments. Then if necessary, I can slightly adjust to the particular song or group as a performance approaches to "lock in" what sounds best for a particular song.

So let's distinguish between the inherent limitations of our Western musical system as it has evolved over the past 500 years, and what the inherent limitations of fretting a stringed instrument are. They are two completely different sets of issues.

[JakeK]

All this technical talk makes my brain hurt.

[cjj]

Makes sense to me...

...nothing is in tune in any genre of modern music that uses more than one chord in its musical structure...

Some of the stuff I've heard lately isn't in tune no matter how many chords are used...

[iiipopes]

All this technical talk makes my brain hurt.

That's OK. A really out-of-tune with itself and out-of-setup 12-string, or any other instrument for that matter, really makes my ears hurt, too.

[Folkie]

After years of stringing my 1991 330/12 with a D'Addario Nickel Wound EXL150 set (.010 - .046), I've just restrung with a set of POTR Curt Mangan Fusion Matched Nickel Wounds (.010 - .042). The difference in sound and playability is dramatic. Despite the fact that my guitar has a stock 6-saddle bridge, there are absolutely no intonation problems. The G-pair, which had given me some sour notes in the past, is perfectly intonated all the way up the neck. And the guitar feels better and plays more smoothly. So before you invest in a 12-saddle bridge, consider trying one of the string sets recommended on this thread. It could make a world of difference.

Robert

[Matt Clark]

Can't stand to have my guitar "out of tune." I HAD to move to a 12 saddle bridge on my 12. I cringed every time I played it until I was able set my intonation properly.