This is turning into a SOAP opera... the story of the 325c58... or did I buy the wrong guitar?
I decided to cut out the middle man in the set-up phase of my brand new, bought at an incredibly low price, geez I have waited all my life to own a Rickenbacker guitar. GC uses a guy within 2 miles of my house. I stopped by, talked to him about the gauge strings that Ric itself recommends for the short scale (he was going to use .11's and the Ric site states clearly that the minimum is .12) and he was cool with that.
So I called today to pick it up and "it's ready"... oh boy, I've been waiting for this. I bought an electronic tuner (the damn thing wasn't in tune), get it tuned up, plug it and... the G string is dead. I mean flat sounding... like there is a mute on it somewhere... like a piece of paper is stuck under it... like it is a 50 year old worn out string.
The D above and the B below sound great... but that G is just deader than a doornail.
HOW CAN THAT BE? If this guy used brand new strings, and has a guitar shop and sets ups guitars, how could he miss this? I have been playing guitar for 36 years so it's not like I don't know how to play a chord or strike a string with a pick. IT"S DEAD!
I can't believe it... I have to go back tomorrow. It's like buying a Ferrari and finding out they put a Volkswagen carberator on it.
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
The never ending tuning saga of the 325C58
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
The never ending tuning saga of the 325C58
"Whatcha ya gonna do now, Rich?"
Patrick,
Hey. I've been reading your posts along.
The G on my new GC blown-out 325C58 is (was) also not the liveliest string on the guitar. I found that the nut was binding the string (probably to be expected on an April 2003 guitar that's just now coming out of the store), so I loosened the string & put some graphite (pencil lead) on the string and in the nut. It's now much better (tunes better and sounds better). I also found that the Kaufmann trem was causing the odd effect of dampening the G and D strings. Both middle strings are much stronger now that I have pulled the Kaufman off the guitar and replaced it with a "vintage" style Rick trapeze tailpiece (attaches to the hooks on the base bracket just as does the Kaufmann).
Another thing to keep in mind is that a wound "G" isn't going to be as strong as a plain steel G, under any circumstances. If you want a stronger G you might want to buy a bunch of plain singles in a gauge one size down from the G-size in your 12-52 set.
I don't think you bought the wrong guitar. I think perhaps that you -- and you're not alone among those who have bought the 325C58 -- aren't fully appreciating what this guitar is. This is a reproduction of the stock 1958 model 325. It's not a guitar that's made to fit into any kind of place, tonally or in terms of playability, in the current "modern" (or is it post-modern now?) world of guitars & guitar players.
I happen to love mine. I have wide-ish hands but smaller fingers. I've also owned and played another short scale guitar, and therefore had some idea of what to expect in terms of playability (it IS different, no question).
What you don't need to do is assume that the 325C58 experience you're having is a "typical" Rickenbacker owner experience. My 325C58 is my third Rick. The two previous were 620s. The 620s (regular scale, high gain pickups, etc.) were both excellent, well made guitars (as is my 325C58). They were current production guitars made more or less for the current market, though, not "vintage re-issues."
Hey. I've been reading your posts along.
The G on my new GC blown-out 325C58 is (was) also not the liveliest string on the guitar. I found that the nut was binding the string (probably to be expected on an April 2003 guitar that's just now coming out of the store), so I loosened the string & put some graphite (pencil lead) on the string and in the nut. It's now much better (tunes better and sounds better). I also found that the Kaufmann trem was causing the odd effect of dampening the G and D strings. Both middle strings are much stronger now that I have pulled the Kaufman off the guitar and replaced it with a "vintage" style Rick trapeze tailpiece (attaches to the hooks on the base bracket just as does the Kaufmann).
Another thing to keep in mind is that a wound "G" isn't going to be as strong as a plain steel G, under any circumstances. If you want a stronger G you might want to buy a bunch of plain singles in a gauge one size down from the G-size in your 12-52 set.
I don't think you bought the wrong guitar. I think perhaps that you -- and you're not alone among those who have bought the 325C58 -- aren't fully appreciating what this guitar is. This is a reproduction of the stock 1958 model 325. It's not a guitar that's made to fit into any kind of place, tonally or in terms of playability, in the current "modern" (or is it post-modern now?) world of guitars & guitar players.
I happen to love mine. I have wide-ish hands but smaller fingers. I've also owned and played another short scale guitar, and therefore had some idea of what to expect in terms of playability (it IS different, no question).
What you don't need to do is assume that the 325C58 experience you're having is a "typical" Rickenbacker owner experience. My 325C58 is my third Rick. The two previous were 620s. The 620s (regular scale, high gain pickups, etc.) were both excellent, well made guitars (as is my 325C58). They were current production guitars made more or less for the current market, though, not "vintage re-issues."
Lawton,
Thanks for the advice.
I just want to be able to play what is supposed to be a dream guitar. I have waited a great deal of time for this.
I don't want to make any major modifications just yet. There is still a hope that I could take the 325 to a show in October and find someone willing to deal for a 360 and some cash. Until then, I just want to be able to play. but if that's not possible...
I also have short fingers. The short scale is great for me because now I can reach bar chords that previously were unplayable. That is one of the reasons I like the guitar. But it also sounds like **** right now and after playing a 360 several weeks ago that was in tune and very lively even after sitting out on the show room florr for anyone to knock about, I guess I just expected the same. I didn't know the 325 was going to be so "touchy"...
Thanks again.
Hey, for some reason your hyperlink didn't work. That's okay 'cuz the old cut and paste workds just as well... but I thought I would let you know.
Thanks for the advice.
I just want to be able to play what is supposed to be a dream guitar. I have waited a great deal of time for this.
I don't want to make any major modifications just yet. There is still a hope that I could take the 325 to a show in October and find someone willing to deal for a 360 and some cash. Until then, I just want to be able to play. but if that's not possible...
I also have short fingers. The short scale is great for me because now I can reach bar chords that previously were unplayable. That is one of the reasons I like the guitar. But it also sounds like **** right now and after playing a 360 several weeks ago that was in tune and very lively even after sitting out on the show room florr for anyone to knock about, I guess I just expected the same. I didn't know the 325 was going to be so "touchy"...
Thanks again.
Hey, for some reason your hyperlink didn't work. That's okay 'cuz the old cut and paste workds just as well... but I thought I would let you know.
"Whatcha ya gonna do now, Rich?"
Hey. I think the "dream guitar" is somewhat similar to the "dream woman" (exists only in your dreams).
Seriously, though, I have never had a guitar (especially a first-time owned guitar) that was at it's best "out of the box." My Elite 65 Casino (great guitar, btw -- stacks up against the 325C58 very well in terms of construction quality, etc.) was the closest thing, I guess, to great out of the box. But it required a new top strap button and a new Tone-Pros locking bridge before it met with MY satisfaction. Every guitar I've owned has probably been through neck adjustments, bridge adjustments, hardware replacements, etc. before it was what I wanted it to be.
I guess my favorite guitar of all time is a '67 Gretsch Clipper (lower end model of that era) that's suffered alot at my hands: swapped out tuning engines, bridge pickup and three-way switch added, bridge & tailpiece replaced... It's a wonderful guitar, but it's nothing like what it was "out of the box" in 1967.
Seriously, though, I have never had a guitar (especially a first-time owned guitar) that was at it's best "out of the box." My Elite 65 Casino (great guitar, btw -- stacks up against the 325C58 very well in terms of construction quality, etc.) was the closest thing, I guess, to great out of the box. But it required a new top strap button and a new Tone-Pros locking bridge before it met with MY satisfaction. Every guitar I've owned has probably been through neck adjustments, bridge adjustments, hardware replacements, etc. before it was what I wanted it to be.
I guess my favorite guitar of all time is a '67 Gretsch Clipper (lower end model of that era) that's suffered alot at my hands: swapped out tuning engines, bridge pickup and three-way switch added, bridge & tailpiece replaced... It's a wonderful guitar, but it's nothing like what it was "out of the box" in 1967.
-
spencer
When I got my 325V63, it went through three or four set-ups before it was right. I hold the opinion that Rics in general are rather touchy, as I went through the same thing with my 360. I'm very picky anyway so all my guitars have been tinkered with until I felt they were playable. Especially the 'newer' ones.
Adjusting to a wound third takes a little time too and a 325 is a freak on many points, no offense, I love mine and would never give it up.
I would suggest, if you're going to keep it, do the trapeze or B5 conversion. I think tuning would be more stable.
Hey Lawton - how do you like those Hi-Lo Trons in your Clipper? I've got a brand new 6119-1962HT Tennesean on it's way to me and I've never had those pups before. I really like the filter-trons. (Not to change the topic)
Adjusting to a wound third takes a little time too and a 325 is a freak on many points, no offense, I love mine and would never give it up.
I would suggest, if you're going to keep it, do the trapeze or B5 conversion. I think tuning would be more stable.
Hey Lawton - how do you like those Hi-Lo Trons in your Clipper? I've got a brand new 6119-1962HT Tennesean on it's way to me and I've never had those pups before. I really like the filter-trons. (Not to change the topic)
-
spencer
Spencer, I like the Hi-Lo Trons. You really get the vintage Gretsch tone from them (hopefully that's what you're after). They are interesting pickups in that they're low (VERY low) output single coils. Being low output there's not much hum (good thing), and they stay really clean at volume (as you might expect from a Gretsch). The neck pickup on mine is the original 60s pickup, while the bridge pickup is of the current production variety. I have to say that Gretsch does a good job with these in current production. The bridge pickup is actually a tad weaker than the neck (period appropriate for these pickups, btw -- the 325C58 bridge pickup may feel weak to alot of people but IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE weaker in a "vintage" configuration) and the tone is what it should be.
So what you get with Hi Lo trons is what you're supposed to get... an opportunity for your amplifier to amplify your guitar (not an opportunity to use a guitar to play your amplifier, as is so often the case with today's setups).
Woo hoo hoo!!!
So what you get with Hi Lo trons is what you're supposed to get... an opportunity for your amplifier to amplify your guitar (not an opportunity to use a guitar to play your amplifier, as is so often the case with today's setups).
Woo hoo hoo!!!
-
spencer
Awesome, thanks.
That's what I've heard and it just makes me look forward to getting it that much more. Other than the Rics, I've got a 335 and SG, so I know about the adjustments that need to be made to the amp to compensate. There's a Seymour Duncan pedal that's out now that's just a clean boost thing. I'm thinking it would compliment the Tenny well.
Sorry to hijack this - now back to that 325...
That's what I've heard and it just makes me look forward to getting it that much more. Other than the Rics, I've got a 335 and SG, so I know about the adjustments that need to be made to the amp to compensate. There's a Seymour Duncan pedal that's out now that's just a clean boost thing. I'm thinking it would compliment the Tenny well.
Sorry to hijack this - now back to that 325...
One other thing that I'm finding to be the case with playing the 325: a thick pick (thicker than what I usually use) seems to do well. I usually prefer a .80mm Clayton or a .88mm Dunlop. With my 325C58 I'm finding myself liking the Fender heavy (1.0mm) or a Dunlop Gator 1.1mm. The shorter strings apparently need a bit more "driving" with my style of play. You might want to give a thicker pick a go, Patrick, and see if that will make any difference for you (especially with the lame-ish third-G).
Good luck!
Good luck!
Another comment:
With proper strings on this guitar (i.e., FLAT WOUNDS) many of the tuning problems will disappear. Flat wound strings don't seem to bind in the nut nearly as badly as do round wounds. You may have a time getting used to the feel & tone with flats, but the guitar will be more playable with flats than with rounds (flats were intended from the beginning).
Good luck!
With proper strings on this guitar (i.e., FLAT WOUNDS) many of the tuning problems will disappear. Flat wound strings don't seem to bind in the nut nearly as badly as do round wounds. You may have a time getting used to the feel & tone with flats, but the guitar will be more playable with flats than with rounds (flats were intended from the beginning).
Good luck!
I took it back to the shop, plugged into a larger amp than waht I have at home and voila, the problems disappeared! (Just haven't had time to make this note...)
So now it is time to upgrade the amplifier situation. There is a great little Crate in the shop that is used but sounds great for $250.00... Christmas is just around the corner and I could always pick up some overtime at work...
So now it is time to upgrade the amplifier situation. There is a great little Crate in the shop that is used but sounds great for $250.00... Christmas is just around the corner and I could always pick up some overtime at work...
"Whatcha ya gonna do now, Rich?"
Dude! These low output toasters require some "significant" amplification. Something like a 25w solid state rig isn't really going to show you the character of the pickups, or the guitar, at all. Remember that tone is colored by the characteristics of your amp's circuit. It's not just a volume (louder or softer) thing. If you're looking for 'Lennon-ish' tones out of the guitar remember that John played through what was basically the loudest "clean" amplification available in the late 50s & early 60s -- Vox AC15s and AC30s.
If $250-ish your target range I'd recommend that you go find yourself a used older tube rig that's been recently serviced and retubed. I just bought a Gibson GA19RVT on ebay (15-20w all tube 1x12). I paid $300-ish for it. It's a 60s amp (old), but it's been well cared for and recently serviced (new capacitors, new tubes). It's a very basic, one channel amp with a single volume knob (no separate gain control), a single tone knob, reverb, and tremelo -- not much in the way of features, I know. But this is the kind of amp the 325s were made to play through. The speaker is the original Jensen C12R, in good shape. To buy this TONE new (current production) amp I'd be spending ALOT more money (twice as much for a new production Fender Deluxe Reverb). And these 15w of 6V6 tube power are apparently (to the ears) as powerful (or more) than a 100w solid state amp.
Your amp is just as important as your guitar for getting the sound you want (many players today say "more important," but they are amp players not guitar players). Skimp on your amp and you skimp on the quality of your tone.
Good luck!
If $250-ish your target range I'd recommend that you go find yourself a used older tube rig that's been recently serviced and retubed. I just bought a Gibson GA19RVT on ebay (15-20w all tube 1x12). I paid $300-ish for it. It's a 60s amp (old), but it's been well cared for and recently serviced (new capacitors, new tubes). It's a very basic, one channel amp with a single volume knob (no separate gain control), a single tone knob, reverb, and tremelo -- not much in the way of features, I know. But this is the kind of amp the 325s were made to play through. The speaker is the original Jensen C12R, in good shape. To buy this TONE new (current production) amp I'd be spending ALOT more money (twice as much for a new production Fender Deluxe Reverb). And these 15w of 6V6 tube power are apparently (to the ears) as powerful (or more) than a 100w solid state amp.
Your amp is just as important as your guitar for getting the sound you want (many players today say "more important," but they are amp players not guitar players). Skimp on your amp and you skimp on the quality of your tone.
Good luck!