New vs. Old

[collin]

Comparing these with a modern Rick is comparing apples to oranges.

Very true....and I should clarify, I obviously prefer vintage Rics, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with modern Rics!

Even the "entry level" Rics will have top quality build and that great Ric sound, and it's not quite fair to compare vintage vs modern. Plus----are we talking build quality? Finish? Sound only? Lots of factors here.

I will say though, that compared to most other brands, your garden variety vintage Rics are the most affordable out there, compared to their modern counterparts. For example, a new 330 is less than $2000, and vintage can be had for $3500, while a new Fender Strat is $1100 and vintage is $15,000, new Gibson ES-335 is $2500, vintage is $20,000 etc.....kinda makes it easier to justify a vintage Ric.

[sys700]

Don't get me wrong. My love for old vs. new is not limited to Rickenbacker. The same goes for Fenders, Gibsons, VOX amps, Moog synths, stereo equipment, watches, cars, books, etc. etc. I think Rickenbacker are manufacturing some of the best guitars you can buy today. From my perspective they are not building any of the models or incorporating features I would like (Lightshow, Lightshow 12-string, Rose Morris 12-string, Jazz-bo, Capri, Fullbody, full width mother of pearl inlays, nickel parts, etc.) but they do build nice guitars. If you are after a specific sound, look, build quality, and mojo, nothing but a 60's Rick will do. If you are willing to settle for something that looks and sounds pretty close, buy a C series guitar. They have a plasticky, almost Japanese look to them, and more of a honky sound to my ears, but you might find it to be exactly what you are after.

PS: Not all 60's Ricks are the same and many have issues. You never know what you're getting until you play one. I had two from one year and they sounded completely different so I sold the one that didn't sound as nice. And the guy I sold it to thought it was the best sounding Rick ever. Just goes to show that everything is relative. If you find one that sounds great, don't ever let it go, even if it has some issues. Most 12-strings have neck reset issues as Paul indicated. But if I had the choice, I'd rather pay to refinish and reset the neck on my old one than buy a new one for the same amount of money. Paul's finishing it up this weekend!

[Folkie]

I've never played a vintage Rick either, but I've heard they sound sublime. However, there's no reason you can't at least approach those classic sixties sounds with a new 330 or 360/12 fitted with scatterwound pickups. You might try out some of the current models at your local stores (they won't have the toaster tops, of course) and if you really want to hear that vintage vibe, try to attend SCARF in August. Should be plenty of vintage Ricks there!

[sys700]

It's more than just the pickups though. From my experience a great sounding 60's Rickenbacker is mainly due to: 1) thickness of top, back, and x-bracing (I believe this is the number one difference in sound - I swapped pickups between a good sounding and ok-sounding 60's 12-string and the pickups made no difference - it was the body and wood that made the difference) 2) pickups, longer poles at neck pre mid-66, number of windings, type of magnets used?, construction (I have had several modern toasters, from the first reissue to the early V64 models to the recent scatterwounds and they don't capture the magic of the vintage ones) 3) bridge construction (no buzzing/rattling springs and type of steel used on saddles) 4) neck contour & width (so much better one vintage) 5) height of strings at nut (very shallow on a vintage Rick resulting in amazing action. As far as looks go, everything from type and color of paint used to the thinness of finish on 60's Ricks, nickel hardware, cast R tailpiece, headstock dimensions, overall body width, slash and/or f-hole location (much more aesthetically pleasing on vintage Ricks - i.e. compare the Rose Morris 1993 12-string reissue with the vintage - dimensions of the reissue are not the same)

[jps]

I've never played a vintage Rick...

Come on over!

[beatles beatnik]

I think the most logical thing I can do now, besides playing them (and hoping that the price is right) is to go for the 360/12c63 or, if I can find a 325c59 that's less than $3K, that as well. They seem to offer the best of both worlds as of now, but taht is just my opinion now...when I play them, that might just change

[Folkie]

I've never played a vintage Rick...

Come on over!

Hey, let's do that!

[Folkie]

It's more than just the pickups though. From my experience a great sounding 60's Rickenbacker is mainly due to: 1) thickness of top, back, and x-bracing (I believe this is the number one difference in sound - I swapped pickups between a good sounding and ok-sounding 60's 12-string and the pickups made no difference - it was the body and wood that made the difference) 2) pickups, longer poles at neck pre mid-66, number of windings, type of magnets used?, construction (I have had several modern toasters, from the first reissue to the early V64 models to the recent scatterwounds and they don't capture the magic of the vintage ones) 3) bridge construction (no buzzing/rattling springs and type of steel used on saddles) 4) neck contour & width (so much better one vintage) 5) height of strings at nut (very shallow on a vintage Rick resulting in amazing action. As far as looks go, everything from type and color of paint used to the thinness of finish on 60's Ricks, nickel hardware, cast R tailpiece, headstock dimensions, overall body width, slash and/or f-hole location (much more aesthetically pleasing on vintage Ricks - i.e. compare the Rose Morris 1993 12-string reissue with the vintage - dimensions of the reissue are not the same)

Wow, Rod, sounds like you really know your stuff! So that's where that classic Rickenbacker 12-string sound comes from! I really wish I could afford a 60's model right now. Maybe I'll save up and invest in one in a few years.

Robert

[jps]

I really wish I could afford a 60's model right now. Maybe I'll save up and invest in one in a few years.

Robert

By that time they may be a whole lot more expensive, if the market turns around.

[Folkie]

Now I NEED a real sixties 360/12! Beware the perils (and costs) of R.A.S.!

[collin]

It's more than just the pickups though. From my experience a great sounding 60's Rickenbacker is mainly due to: 1) thickness of top, back, and x-bracing (I believe this is the number one difference in sound - I swapped pickups between a good sounding and ok-sounding 60's 12-string and the pickups made no difference - it was the body and wood that made the difference) 2) pickups, longer poles at neck pre mid-66, number of windings, type of magnets used?, construction (I have had several modern toasters, from the first reissue to the early V64 models to the recent scatterwounds and they don't capture the magic of the vintage ones) 3) bridge construction (no buzzing/rattling springs and type of steel used on saddles) 4) neck contour & width (so much better one vintage) 5) height of strings at nut (very shallow on a vintage Rick resulting in amazing action. As far as looks go, everything from type and color of paint used to the thinness of finish on 60's Ricks, nickel hardware, cast R tailpiece, headstock dimensions, overall body width, slash and/or f-hole location (much more aesthetically pleasing on vintage Ricks - i.e. compare the Rose Morris 1993 12-string reissue with the vintage - dimensions of the reissue are not the same)

Yep, it's the WOOD. I think the pickups are one of the last factors that make vintage Ricks better.....you can tell the difference immediately after picking up a vintage Rick....the increased resonance is immediately noticeable.

[Folkie]

Rod and Collin,

I hear you loud and clear about the importance of the body and the wood in creating that classic Rick 12-string sound. Why doesn't Rick make guitars that way anymore--ie. with the bracing and thickness you described?

Robert

[collin]

Why doesn't Rick make guitars that way anymore--ie. with the bracing and thickness you described?

Because they are the achille's heel of vintage Rickenbackers. The same delicate construction that makes them resonant is the same construction that led to so many weak neck joints, neck resets, bad neck angles, breaks etc. Same goes for the rail thin necks on 60's models compared to today--thicker is stronger.

I think the "warranty factor" is much more important nowadays than 40 years ago, and it makes a lot more sense for RIC to produce them as-is, to avoid extensive warranty repairs, even at the expense of tone.

[sys700]

Because they are the achille's heel of vintage Rickenbackers. The same delicate construction that makes them resonant is the same construction that led to so many weak neck joints, neck resets, bad neck angles, breaks etc. Same goes for the rail thin necks on 60's models compared to today--thicker is stronger.

I think the "warranty factor" is much more important nowadays than 40 years ago, and it makes a lot more sense for RIC to produce them as-is, to avoid extensive warranty repairs, even at the expense of tone.

I agree 100%. Late 50's to mid-60's guitars were works of art and must have been painstakingly created by hand. My '64 330S is built like a violin. It feels very light and fragile, like a Stradivarius, and it puts a smile on my face everytime I pick it up. I'm sure if I hit the headstock against something it would snap off.

My suggestion is to go try out a 360/12c63 for yourself. If you like it, buy it. I tried one, and it wasn't for me, although the headstock and overall dimensions are about as authentic as you can get with a modern-day Rickenbacker, it still looked to me like a copy of the real thing. And I was surprised to see sap-marks in the wood on the face of the guitar. So instead I sunk my money back into my 60's Rick.

There are 9 12c63's on eBay right now priced at nearly $3k a piece. Apparently the market doesn't support that price because the last 3-4 sold for $2500. In the long run, I think the vintage Rick will only increase in value, and the 360/12c63, if it increases at all, will increase only gradually. If I were in the market for a George Harrison 12-string, I'd wait until the right 330/12 came along, or buy the one sitting on Gbase for $2850 and send it to Paul W. for a refret/refin/neck reset to turn it into a 360/12OS (like the one selling for $30k on gBase). Then it should last for another 50+ years.

[Ontario_RIC_fan]

Vintage does not just mean 60s either...

My favorite era of Rickenbackers is actually the late 70s/early 80s. Anything pre-1983 still has many of the vintage touches like small head stocks, x bracing and Kluson tuners...

A guitar from that era likely sells significantly less then a 1960s one...