Vox Amps Big vs. Small

[8mileshigher]

Robert, it's too bad you just missed out on our jamming pal BuddyDog selling his showroom condition AC15 Heritage a couple of weeks back. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=401821
This was a very nice cream tolex amp and it sold for an excellant price.
Those Handwired H series come with the Alnico Blues.

[Tommy]

North Coast Music ..... they only offer a 48 hour return period. Compare this to 45 days at Musician's Friend!)

I'd be interested to know how you set your tone knobs on your AC30.

I always appreciate it when someone has the courage to go against the trend on this forum. Thanks, Tommy, for playing devil's advocate.

Firstly, I am not setting out to play Devil's Advocate. I am not trying to be negative. For example, you asked about North Coast and I gave you nothing but high praise. My goal here is to just to be helpful as others are. That entails telling the good, bad, and ugly.

A) Yes, that 48 hour return policy from North Coast is frightening. My two big ticket items that I purchased from them were a Hofner bass and an AC30. The bass I could tell instantly what was wrong or right, so no problem with 48 hour return policy there. But when I bought my amp from them it was my first tube amp and I was petrified over that return policy. How can I who never owned a tube amp find out any problems in a matter of hours? Well, I bit the bullet and went with North Coast anyway, and have been very pleased. Look, the other services they offer (double boxing, inspection, playing the gear before they ship, etc...) were key selling points. Plus their reputation helped a lot. And a bigger plus was I can say I bought a Vox from the same guy who sold a Vox to a Beatle! (Alright it was sold to Pete Best, but I don't tell anyone that.)

B) My settings for my AC30 may surprise you. I play Top Boost channel. Tone Cut at 50%, treble 3/4s up, bass 3/4s up. See, you probably think the treble would be low, but that's not the case. It's weird. The Vox is inherently trebly and can be very spikey...but as I said it really depends upon what guitar and pickup you are playing. Those settings above are for my Ric. With my Strat and Tele I use roughly those settings but link the Normal channel in which smooths out spikeyness. The Normal on its own is rather dull, but when linking with Top Boost it serves a great use in taming the Top Boost/single coil guitars combination.

With my Casinos and Gretsches, it gets weirder. Bass 100%, Treble 100%! The tone controls are interactive so at that setting it cuts all the mids. It really is strange and I have no idea why, but bass and treble knobs at 100% give me a clean, balanced sound with those guitars.

The tone controls on my Vox are very strange and very tempermental. It literally took me over a year to finally figure out how to get great sound for my Gretsch. Though I prefer my Ric sound from my Princeton Chorus, the AC30 is user friendly with a Ric. No problem there. But for all my other guitars I really had to work out certain combinations of knobs to suit the guitar.

My Ric is a 360/12, standard pickups. I have tried a compressor with my Ric and Vox and yeah it definitely smoothed everything out, but I didn't like the tone. I know of Jangleboxes but to me that is McGuinn's Byrd's tone. I prefer George Harrison's Ric sound so I never bought me a Jangle.

I have used a boost; not a treble boost, just a volume boost from a BOSS EQ pedal into my AC30 and "WOW! I was told guys like Slash use an EQ pedal as a boost and now I know why. I step on my BOSS with the volume slider up, the pre-amp tubes in the amp get hit hard, and I get an incredible, Marshall like crunch with insane overtones and harmonics. I was stunned the first time I tried that trick. But basically I like playing clean. That's why I love my Fender Princeton Chorus and my Vox. Real clean, bright amps.

[paologregorio]

I use overdrive with my AC30s, so I generally max out the tone cut to get rid of almost all the highs, at least with a Rick; I back it off a bit with my Gretsch Jets or Fenders.

Facing the front of the amp looking towards the back (thank you Vox for being nice and confusing and not putting numbers on your AC amp control panels ever ), I set my controls with the tone cut at the 1'o clock (max high cut), or maybe 2 o'clock positions. Volume varies, but for most situations it's about at the 3 o'clock position max (it starts to get loud there, sometimes I have to lower it to between the 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions). Treble is at about the 3 or 4 o'clock position, and bass is at the 7 or 8 o'clock position.

How confusing is that?

[Folkie]

I use overdrive with my AC30s, so I generally max out the tone cut to get rid of almost all the highs, at least with a Rick; I back it off a bit with my Gretsch Jets or Fenders.

Facing the front of the amp looking towards the back (thank you Vox for being nice and confusing and not putting numbers on your AC amp control panels ever ), I set my controls with the tone cut at the 1'o clock (max high cut), or maybe 2 o'clock positions. Volume varies, but for most situations it's about at the 3 o'clock position max (it starts to get loud there, sometimes I have to lower it to between the 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions). Treble is at about the 3 or 4 o'clock position, and bass is at the 7 or 8 o'clock position.

How confusing is that?

Paul,

Not confusing at all. Do both your AC30's have Alnico Blues?

Robert

[paologregorio]

I use overdrive with my AC30s, so I generally max out the tone cut to get rid of almost all the highs, at least with a Rick; I back it off a bit with my Gretsch Jets or Fenders.

Facing the front of the amp looking towards the back (thank you Vox for being nice and confusing and not putting numbers on your AC amp control panels ever ), I set my controls with the tone cut at the 1'o clock (max high cut), or maybe 2 o'clock positions. Volume varies, but for most situations it's about at the 3 o'clock position max (it starts to get loud there, sometimes I have to lower it to between the 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions). Treble is at about the 3 or 4 o'clock position, and bass is at the 7 or 8 o'clock position.

How confusing is that?

Paul,

Not confusing at all. Do both your AC30's have Alnico Blues?

Robert

Yep. My CC2X (always use at low power with vintage type filering), my H2 handwired(pentode mode always), both have Alnico Blues. My`73 that I had a new cabinet built for and rewired to 60s TB specs, has the silver framed "Bulldog" variant-the only difference is the silver paint, according to the experts. . and the "Vox Bulldog" label. The frames have the "Celestion" stamp.

[Folkie]

Well, I took my 360/12 with Toasters and Janglebox JB2 to Guitar Center today and spent an hour playing them through the Greenback-equipped Vox AC15C1. It took me almost the entire hour to dial in the right tone, and even then it was nothing spectacular. I ended up blending the bridge and neck pickups on the 360, with the small fifth knob in about the middle position. I dialed in the AC15 as follows: Master Volume at a little past 9:00, Tone Cut at a little past 9:00, Reverb at almost 12:00, Bass all the way up, Treble at almost 3:00, and Volume at 10:00. Even with all the adjusting and readjusting, the tone never came close to my Princeton Chorus.

As a second experiment, I went down the street to Sam Ash and tried out the used AC30CC1 with the same gear. Immediately it became clear that the sound was a dramatic improvement. Suddenly the 360 really came alive, and it sounded great even before the Janglebox was kicked in. The salesperson informed me that the speaker in the amp was a 12-inch Celestion Blue Bulldog, and that it was in the same family and should sound similar to an Alnico Blue. Could someone out there please tell me if this is accurate?

Yes, I really loved the tones I was getting from the AC30CC1, especially in tandem with the Janglebox, but there were several red flags. For one thing, the Reverb was not working (with or without the footswitch). For another, the Tone Cut was not functioning properly either. Then there were several small two-way switches that seemed to only have a negligible effect on the amp sound. There was an on/off switch called "Brilliance." There was an EQ switch that offered "Standard" or "Custom." There was a switch called "Dwell" which offered "Low Drive" or "High Drive." I repeatedly tried both positions of each switch and noticed no audible difference. Could somebody please tell me what these switches are supposed to do?

To make things worse, the amp was generating a lot of heat through the grilles on top, and the plastic was melting on the right-most grille. Also, the amp was too heavy to lift, and they were asking $799, only $200 less than the brand new AC30 with two Greenback speakers.

If the amp hadn't been in such bad shape, I might have bought it immediately. I'm still wondering what accounts for the difference in tone I noticed between the AC15 and the AC30. Was it the speaker type or some other factor or combination of factors entirely?

Robert

[8mileshigher]

North Coast Music ..... they only offer a 48 hour return period. Compare this to 45 days at Musician's Friend!)

A) Yes, that 48 hour return policy from North Coast is frightening.

Yes, you guys bring up a very valid and important aspect for high-end electronics purchases.

[Tommy]

For one thing, the Reverb was not working (with or without the footswitch). For another, the Tone Cut was not functioning properly either. Then there were several small two-way switches that seemed to only have a negligible effect on the amp sound. There was an on/off switch called "Brilliance." There was an EQ switch that offered "Standard" or "Custom." There was a switch called "Dwell" which offered "Low Drive" or "High Drive." I repeatedly tried both positions of each switch and noticed no audible difference. Could somebody please tell me what these switches are supposed to do?

To make things worse, the amp was generating a lot of heat through the grilles on top, and the plastic was melting on the right-most grille. Also, the amp was too heavy to lift

1. Maybe the reverb in the amp you were trying out was just flat out broken, but even a fully functional reverb in a Vox is nothing to rave about. Many users switch out the tanks. Vox reverb is well below the standards of a Fender reverb. My reverb in my Vox works fine but it is no way the beauty of a Fender reverb.

2. The Tone Cut will not work at the levels you were probably playing at in a store. The Tone Cut works in conjunction with the Master Volume knob. If you have your Normal or Top Boost volumes up but have your Master Volume low, the Tone Cut knob will have zero effect. It is only when your Master Volume knob is up that your Tone Cut knob will be noticebale.

3. The Brilliance switch should work. Normal Channel, flick the little switch and it will get brighter. The Normal channel without that switch in Brilliance position is absolutely usesless. It has to work otherwise Normal Channel is bleh. Why it didn't work in the amp you were trying may be due to the fact that A) it is broken, or B) you weren't playing through the Normal Channel. On these amps it is kind of tricky. It isn't just plug and play. You have to plug into the right jack and then flick a switch to make sure you are getting signal to that jack and not linking the channels, etc... It is zero problem once you know what to do, but first time doing it I can see a novice not knowing how to use the various channels. It is possible you weren't playing in the Normal Channel (or you inadvertantly linked the channels and Normal was not level with Top Boost) and thus the Brilliant switch was not working. The Brilliant switch is a good feature for that channel. (By the way, the switch has to be flicked away from the Brilliance word on the panel to work. It is assbackwards and confusing. The Tone Cut knob also work backwards. More confusion.)

4. Dwell switch should work. It gives a more dramatic depth to the reverb. To try it out turn the reverb all the way up and flick that switch and you definitely should hear a difference.

5. EQ flick switch is bizarre. One setting makes the tone knobs interactive, means the mids are determined by the relation between the treble and bass knobs. The other setting makes the tone knobs act normally. I flick to Custom and set my treble and bass up to 100% and that rids me of all mids. I don't like mids so I keep my amp on that Custom setting. (Or is it the Standard setting I am using? It really is confusing.)

6. The amp does run hot (I always play with a little computer fan running behind it), but no way should things be melting. And yes, the amp is VERY heavy. Laugh about it, brag about it, but the weight is what it is.

As noted throughout this thread, the Vox is a very finicky, complex amp (you didn't even address all the switchees on the back of that amp. Just wait till you look at all those). I said it took me over a year to finally get a tone I am happy with in one particular guitar. It's not a joke. There are a billion options of tone available on these amps. A part of me wishes it were just like my Princeton Chorus - plug and play. But then a part of me likes the idea that there are many things to try out on this amp. (Example, I have finally started to enjoy the idea of linking the two channels.) Many possibilities with these amps. They are professional amps. Not bedroom toys.

[BuddyDog]

Hi Robert,

Maybe the speaker on the AC15 needs to be broken in...

[paologregorio]

The reverb circuit on the AC30 does not use a tube, IIRC, so if the reverb was not working at all, the springs in the unit were broken; this happened to me with my CC2x. It's also happened to me with a Fender Reverb unit. If you let the dealer know, they'll take care of it, which they should want to for their demo amp!

The spring reverb unit Vox uses in the CC, and C has a really long "tail"; it's a Korean unit, or at least was when I bought my amp, rather than an Accutronics unit (replacing the original with an Accutronics unit is recommended, but I am satisfied with mine as is. to get a Fender-type reverb sound one really has to back off the controls. the "Hi drive/low drive" switch for the reverb affects the amount of reverb output in relation to the amp's settings. When the amp's being overdriven or played at really high output, the signal going into the reverb is a lot stronger, so the reverb signal coming out of the amp is a lot stronger, or "wet" as well. If you're overdriving the amp/playing loud with the switch in the "low drive" position, the wet signal is overpowering-sounds like you're in the Cramps, or some surf-garage band. Moving the switch to the "low drive" position reduces the reverb signal output to reasonable levels. In a nutshell; "low drive" for cleaner playing, "hi drive" for overdriven, high volume playing.

[Folkie]

Tommy,

Thanks for the detailed reponses to my spate of questions.

First of all, I agree with you that the reverb on Vox amps is nothing to write home about. It certainly pales in comparison to the Fender spring reverb. So I was planning on running a reverb pedal into the amp anyway. Still, the fact that the salespeople at Sam Ash swore up and down that the reverb was okay (the salesman said it was just "subtle") makes me worry that there could be other problems with the amp that I just don't know about. And it certainly makes me question their honesty. It sounds like there are multiple controls for tailoring the reverb, but (guess what) no reverb!

Second, I did indeed have the Top Boost Volume up and the Master Volume low, so that's why the Tone Cut wasn't working. Thank you for calling this to my attention. I was under the impression that setting the volume controls this way would give me lots of clean volume without breaking up. Is that accurate?
It sure sounded right to me.

Third: The reason the Brilliance switch didn't do anything is that I was playing in the Top Boost rather than the Normal Channel. Thank you for straightening this out.

Obviously, the reason the Dwell switch didn't do anything is that the reverb was not working. The same goes for the "low drive" / "hi drive" switch, as Paul has kindly pointed out.

I still don't understand what the EQ switch does, but I probably wouldn't use it much anyway.

Can you explain to me how the channel link works, and how it might affect the amp's tone?

The most important thing is sound. I was absolutely smitten with the AC30 when I played it with my 360/12 and Janglebox. Unlike the AC15, which was very hard to dial in, the AC30 sounded great with just about all of the settings I tried. Amazing treble and chime, but no harshness.

This question may sound ridiculous, but what are my options for finding a new amp that sounds like the used AC30CC1? Is Vox still making these amps, and how pricey might they be? Is there any similarity between the 12-inch Celestion Blue Bulldog speaker and the famous 12-inch Alnico Blue?

Robert

[Tommy]

I still don't understand what the EQ switch does, but I probably wouldn't use it much anyway.

Can you explain to me how the channel link works, and how it might affect the amp's tone?

AC30CC1? Is Vox still making these amps, and how pricey might they be?
what are my options for finding a new amp that sounds like the used AC30CC1?

1. The EQ switch on the CC2 essentially gives you control over the mids. In one setting the mids is locked in, in the other setting the treble and bass knobs control your mids (turn them up and mids drop).

2. AC30 has two channels; the Normal Channel and the Top Boost. The Top Boost is the classic sound, very bright and punch. The Normal channel is, well, rather Normal. Just flat. No EQ knobs at all come with that channel (except the Tone Cut which is attached to Master Volume) and you must flick the bright switch to get a good Normal Channel sound. Cool thing is you can link these different channel tones. Linking can brighten up your Normal channel or smooth out your Top Boost. What I find is the linking creates a fuller tone. Has more beef. Thicker but no sludge. My Tele into the Top Boost is really spikey, so I just flick the link switch and WOW! Fantastic solid guitar tone.

3. Vox has discontinued the CC2 series about a year or two ago. There are tons out there, some dealers may still have them. The new AC30s do not have as many bells and whistles as the CC2s. Plus the cabinet itself is lower grade. The new AC30 is priced cheaper than a new CC2 was priced because these new amps do not have what the CC2 had. The discontinued CC2 offers more. If you can find a used CC2 at a price comparable to the new C2, then you'd be getting a great deal. The only amp that people say sounds like an AC30 are amps made by British company Laney. They have a VC30 that is supposedly a dead ringer for a Vox AC30.

But I'd strongly suggest that VOX AC30 is the way to go. I posted earlier, if you are going to go for a Vox, why get the AC15? You'll only be wishing you had gone that step higher and gotten the famed AC30. Great amp, professional amp. However, it ain't perfect.
Here are the dislikes I have with the AC30:
- EQ section could be better
- the weight
- to change tubes is a real bear (the new AC30s have fixed that inconvenience)
- to me, humbucking pickups do not sound good in an AC30

[paologregorio]

The channel link switch allows one to play through both the normal and brilliant channels at the same time. There is a history of AC 30 players doing this; on the old amps, one wouldl run a small patch cable between the inputs of the two channels. the CC Series allows one to do combine the channels with the flip of a switch.

[Folkie]

Tommy,

Sure, the AC30CC amps have more bells and whistles (a fact I'm just learning about from you), but three of those features are inoperative on the used CC1 I looked at, because its reverb unit is defective. Do you have any idea how much it might cost me to replace the reverb unit?

I had no idea that there was a difference in cabinet construction. So the new AC30's are cheaper than the CC series? That would explain the $800 pricetag on the not so mint condition one at Sam Ash. I'm stll leaning toward the AC15, because, for my purposes, I don't need earth-shattering volume, and I could barely lift the AC30. What I want is an AC15 with as close as possible to the same speaker as the CC1: a 12-inch Celestion Blue Bulldog, or maybe an Alnico Blue. It won't sound like an AC30, but then again I won't pull my back out lifting it.

Robert

[paologregorio]

Check out the plexi palace website for a wealth of information on the CC and newer series Vox amps. Also, Antique Electronic Supply, among other places, sells reverb tanks. I wouldn't buy the amp you tried out unless the store offered a serious discount; none of my AC30s has ever operated so hot that the vent grills distorted from the the heat.

An Accutronics tank's about $24 frtom Antique Electronic Supply; fyi, looks like whoever bought Accutronics also bought the Korean plant that was building the similar units for Vox, because Accutronics tanks are now built in Korea. Great, something else that's not built in the U.S. anymore.