Tighter String-Spacing Pros and Cons

[Folkie]

Simon,

Yes, the narrow necks are one of the quirks of the instruments, but I'm happy to say that they don't create any problems for me!

Do let us know what you find at Rudy's Music Stop. I was there seven or eight years ago, and they're a class act.

Robert

[Folkie]

I still haven't bitten the bullet and e-mailed Chris Clayton about the possible mod to my 360/12. First I'll have to make some precise measurements of my 330/12, since I'm using it as a prototype for the string-spacing on my 360. It should be a relatively routine job for Chris (After all, every time he installs a 12-saddle bridge, the question of string-spacing comes up.) My only worry is the cost of shipping the instrument out to New Jersey and back. But if the guitar plays like my 330, it will be worth every penny!

Robert

[stsang]

I still haven't bitten the bullet and e-mailed Chris Clayton about the possible mod to my 360/12. First I'll have to make some precise measurements of my 330/12, since I'm using it as a prototype for the string-spacing on my 360. It should be a relatively routine job for Chris (After all, every time he installs a 12-saddle bridge, the question of string-spacing comes up.) My only worry is the cost of shipping the instrument out to New Jersey and back. But if the guitar plays like my 330, it will be worth every penny!

Robert

Thanks for the update. I have been pondering getting a 12-string saddle fitted on my Ric, but to be honest I haven't had any major intonation problems with the factory 6-saddle bridge. Did your 12-string come with the 12-string saddle bridge? BTW, I was looking at the 12-string nut on the Rickenbacker boutique http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/NUT-ST ... p_568.html (I think this is the right one for 330/360s). I may be imagining it, but the nut there appears to have the string pairs more widely spaced than on my 2002 Ric? Is this the new standard?

[Folkie]

Thanks for the update. I have been pondering getting a 12-string saddle fitted on my Ric, but to be honest I haven't had any major intonation problems with the factory 6-saddle bridge. Did your 12-string come with the 12-string saddle bridge? BTW, I was looking at the 12-string nut on the Rickenbacker boutique http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/NUT-ST ... p_568.html (I think this is the right one for 330/360s). I may be imagining it, but the nut there appears to have the string pairs more widely spaced than on my 2002 Ric? Is this the new standard?[/quote]

My 360/12 came with the stock 6-saddle bridge and I've had no noticeable intonation problems. But it seems to me that, if I'm replacing the bridge anyway, why not go with the 12-saddle and have Chris notch it to my specs.

My guess would be yes, the nut pictured on the boutique is the new standard, but the resolution of the photo is so poor that I can't tell for sure.

I understand that the new 330's and 360's have the same nut width. Would you happen to know whether the binding on a 360/12 neck would be a factor affecting available string space?

Robert

[Folkie]

I still haven't bitten the bullet and e-mailed Chris Clayton about the possible mod to my 360/12. First I'll have to make some precise measurements of my 330/12, since I'm using it as a prototype for the string-spacing on my 360. It should be a relatively routine job for Chris (After all, every time he installs a 12-saddle bridge, the question of string-spacing comes up.) My only worry is the cost of shipping the instrument out to New Jersey and back. But if the guitar plays like my 330, it will be worth every penny!

Robert

Thanks for the update. I have been pondering getting a 12-string saddle fitted on my Ric, but to be honest I haven't had any major intonation problems with the factory 6-saddle bridge. Did your 12-string come with the 12-string saddle bridge? BTW, I was looking at the 12-string nut on the Rickenbacker boutique http://boutique.rickenbacker.com/NUT-ST ... p_568.html (I think this is the right one for 330/360s). I may be imagining it, but the nut there appears to have the string pairs more widely spaced than on my 2002 Ric? Is this the new standard?

Simon,

My 360/12 came with the stock 6-saddle bridge and I've had no noticeable intonation problems. But it seems to me that, if I'm replacing the bridge anyway, why not go with the 12-saddle and have Chris notch it to my specs.

My guess would be yes, the nut pictured on the boutique is the new standard, but the resolution of the photo is so poor that I can't tell for sure.

I understand that the new 330's and 360's have the same nut width. Would you happen to know whether the binding on a 360/12 neck would be a factor affecting available string space?

Robert

[stsang]

I understand that the new 330's and 360's have the same nut width. Would you happen to know whether the binding on a 360/12 neck would be a factor affecting available string space?

Robert

Good morning Robert, I'm certainly no expert - perhaps someone who is more authoritative could respond? I read on the earlier thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=402541 that Todd Bradshaw (teb) seemed to think the binding might be a factor in the different feel between 330 and 360 (and it certainly sounds plausible). If you pull the trigger on this, could you please take before and after photos and post them for future reference? All the best!

[teb]

What the binding does is determine how close to the fingerboard edges the frets extend. If the neck is bound, the frets will stop at the binding, slightly short of the fingerboard edges. If the neck isn't bound, the frets will be slightly wider and stop at the edge of the fingerboard. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference. Whether or not there is currently and variation in the factory string spacing at the nut and/or bridge to make any use of this little bit of extra space on unbound necks, I can't tell you, but I doubt it. About the only way this would probably matter would be in a case like mine, where we were trying to get every possible millimeter of string spread that we could get to increase finger-room. My 370/12 was refretted with the new frets extending over the binding, all the way to the edges and not much bevel at the fret ends. Since my 340/12 already has frets all the way to the edges, it was fairly close (slightly more beveled, but not too bad) and I just cut a new nut from a scrap block of graphite and moved the strings closer to the edges.

[Folkie]

Simon,

If I have this mod done, I will certainly post some before and after photos. I probably won't get around to the mod for at least a month, due to other things going on in my life right now. But Todd's stories of his successful mods really give me faith that the guitar can be made right for my playing style.

By the way, I just played a new 330/12 that's been sitting around at our local Sam Ash for a few years, and it has much tighter pairs than both my '91 and the 360/12C63. But they're still slightly wider than those on my 2010 360/12, which makes it a little easier to get a flatpick between the courses when tuning up.

Robert

[teb]

UUUhhhhhhhh....this may sound like a dumb question, but why not just pick upward on half of the strings when tuning up? Maybe it's my total lack of any formal musical instruction or training, but I'd guestimate that on the average flat-picked 12-string tune, I'm picking upward on 40% of the notes, maybe more. I do it on my Martin twelve, too, even though it's strung the other way, but I can't say the sound is really very different.

[Folkie]

Todd,

Thanks for the suggestion. I only mentioned the tune up issue to illustrate just how close those pairs really are. In fact, with a good chromatic tuner, I can tune to concert pitch with virtually no headache. I will keep in mind what you said, though.

Robert

[Folkie]

Todd,

It just occurred to me that I do tune up the way you recommended: an upstroke to each low course and a downstroke to each octave. Tuning up really hasn't been my issue with the narrow pairs. For me, it comes down to the question of tone. I just don't like the sound of that G-pair with the stock spacing. So I think it may be worth my while to have my bridge and nut modded. Your resounding success having your Rics modded really encourages me.

Robert

[teb]

Never being one who is shy about mods if I think they'll help my playing, if I was you, I'd do an experiment and cut a new slot in the nut (and maybe the bridge) for the G octave and space it out a little bit more to see what happens. I suppose a stray slot or two would horrify some of the purists, but if you're thinking about changing them anyway, you don't have anything to lose.

[stsang]

Never being one who is shy about mods if I think they'll help my playing, if I was you, I'd do an experiment and cut a new slot in the nut (and maybe the bridge) for the G octave and space it out a little bit more to see what happens. I suppose a stray slot or two would horrify some of the purists, but if you're thinking about changing them anyway, you don't have anything to lose.

I have to admit, I flinched a little when I read that!

[Folkie]

Never being one who is shy about mods if I think they'll help my playing, if I was you, I'd do an experiment and cut a new slot in the nut (and maybe the bridge) for the G octave and space it out a little bit more to see what happens. I suppose a stray slot or two would horrify some of the purists, but if you're thinking about changing them anyway, you don't have anything to lose.

Thanks, Todd. I'm a little wary of messing with the string-spacing myself, although, if I had your expertise, I wouldn't think twice about it. In general, my philosophy is to concentrate on my music and let my techs worry about setups, mods, repairs, etc. I think the last time I played that used 360/12C63 at Sam Ash clinched my decision: it had wide enough pairs to really chime out, but narrow enough ones to have comfortable finger-space between them. Close to the spacing of my 1991 330/12, though not exact. I certainly won't have this mod done without making precise measurements and without thinking things through. I appreciate your advice, as you've had more experience modifying your Rics than just about anyone here.

Robert

[Folkie]

Today I spoke to Chris Clayton at Pick of the Ricks about the possibility of my ordering a 360/12c63 nut to mod my 2010 360/12. Chris called Richard at the Rickenbacker Factory and relayed to me what Richard told him, namely that he believed part #03327 was the nut for the 360/12c63. But here comes the confusing part: Richard also told Chris that part #03327 is the stock nut for new 360/12's like my 2010.

I've noticed a world of difference between my stock 360/12 and the 2007 360/12c63 I've played on more than one occasion at Sam Ash. I agree with Jake K. that the string-spacing is near perfect on that model, just narrow enough to be comfortable, just wide enough to really chime. Now I'm really confused. A very knowledgeable forumite told me earlier in this thread that the string-spacing on the George Harrison model was NOT affected by the 2005 Rickenbacker string mods. But when I spoke to Chris today, he suggested otherwise. Chris was kind enough to offer to mail me two different nuts (parts #03327 and #03328), so I could compare them with the nut on my 360.

I'm in a bit of a quandary. On the one hand, I was hoping to have Chris do the mod on my 360/12 because he deals exclusively with Rickenbackers and does beautiful work. On the other, Chris has no c63's in stock, and Sam Ash has a used one on the wall that plays beautifully. If I wanted to use that guitar as a prototype, Sam Ash has a very well-respected tech/luthier who could measure the string spacing and cut me a new nut and bridge to its specs.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to compare those two replacement nuts easily with the nut on my 360/12 and reach some sort of decision. In the worst case scenario, I may have to sell my 360/12 and invest in a used 360/12c63 (although there are things I prefer about the stock 360, namely the "R" tailpiece instead of the trapeze, and the rounder cutaway). But ultimately it's how the guitar plays and sounds that's paramount.

This note comes from one very frustrated Rickenbacker player. If anyone has any advice, please chime in.