Tighter String-Spacing Pros and Cons

[stsang]

Today I spoke to Chris Clayton at Pick of the Ricks about the possibility of my ordering a 360/12c63 nut to mod my 2010 360/12. Chris called Richard at the Rickenbacker Factory and relayed to me what Richard told him, namely that he believed part #03327 was the nut for the 360/12c63. But here comes the confusing part: Richard also told Chris that part #03327 is the stock nut for new 360/12's like my 2010.

Thanks for the update! Wow - that is confusing. Could it be possible that Richard@Rickenbacker is wrong about part #03327 being on both the 360/12 and 360/12c63? (though it seems unlikely Richard would get that wrong) The other factor I can think of is that the c63 has (I think) a 7" neck radius vs the 10" neck radius on the standard modern 360/12. Could that have somehow played a role in your perception that the string spacing is easier on the c63?

[Folkie]

Simon,

I don't really think the string-spacing is "easier" on the 360/12c63. I've played guitars with wider pairs (my 1991 330/12) and with tighter ones (my 2010 360/12) and I've found all of them easy to play. Where I run into trouble with my stock 360/12 is with the closeness of the pairs squelching the chime of the G-pair. Much of this probably has to do with my idiosyncratic fretting technique, but I really do prefer the "classic" Ric string-spacing to the "modern" one.

Robert

[teb]

Where I run into trouble with my stock 360/12 is with the closeness of the pairs squelching the chime of the G-pair

I still find this whole concept extremely hard to believe. Mine are both set up about as close as can be and my G pairs ring and sustain just fine. The same with my previous 360/12.

[Folkie]

Todd,

I understand your skepticism, but I'm sure you and I have different playing styles, not to mention different ears. If I were complaining that all Rick 12's sounded bad to me, then that might be a little suspect. But I've played so many that actually feel and sound really good (my 1991 330/12, for example, or the 360/12c63 I was talking about). Some of the guitars work for me and others just don't. Not to mention the fact that when you sent those photos of your modded 12-string, I could clearly see that your pairs were wider than the ones on my stock 360.

I have yet to see a guitar with tighter courses than my 360; in fact, I don't think it's physically possible that they could be spaced any closer. So it's not a personal criticism when I complain about the problems I'm having with one guitar. I prefer the wider pairs. They sound better and feel better for my playing style. To each his own!

Robert

[teb]

Did we ever see any photos of this guitar with the ultra-close pairs? My point is that if you're not getting adequate chime on one particular pair and the two strings aren't obviously clanging together as they move, then it may be time to actually find out what might be damping them. If nothing else, I'd think it would be worth a close look at the bridge saddle and its slots, and the frets, by someone who knows what they're doing. I'll assume you have already tried changing those particular strings, because once in a while you can get a dud.

Selling the guitar because you don't like the nut or bridge slotting seems awfully drastic to me, considering what a minimal job it is to change them. I don't like sending my guitars all the way out to Washington to have Arnquist set them up, but I've certainly never felt like it wasn't worth the money and hassle ten times over when they came back. If it's not something I can do myself, sometimes I just have to suck it up and ship it out. You're talking about careful fine-tuning of a complex instrument to your own personal taste by somebody who knows those instruments very well. Unfortunately, there are only a few people in the country who seem to be really good at that and it's likely to involve shipping.

[8mileshigher]

This thread is very interesting reading.

Folkie, I'm sorry that you are having this frustration on your spacing on the G string pair ... I think Todd is on to something with his suggestion of checking the G saddle slots. We have had all these comparative photos of the Nut end of these various 12 strings. Maybe some photographic study of the saddle slots is indeed the next step, before you start shipping guitars across state lines for mods.

[stsang]

Maybe some photographic study of the saddle slots is indeed the next step, before you start shipping guitars across state lines for mods.

Please allow me to start the ball rolling...

Close-up of Simon's Ric360-12 Bridge

Close-up of Simon's Ric360-12 Bridge (centered on pickup)

[Folkie]

Todd and Rich,

Thanks for the advice. I've had two techs (one of whom is the star guitar tech in the city) work on this guitar since I got it last year, and neither one has noticed any problems with the frets or the bridge saddles. Yes, I have changed both G-strings multiple times. But the strings are indeed "clanging together" when I fret them. I might take the guitar back to one of my techs for a bridge inspection. Thanks for the suggestion, Todd. Your claim that the work Arnquist did on your 12-strings was "worth the hassle and the money ten times over" is exactly my rationale for spending the money to ship my guitar to Chris Clayton. Yes, I'll only trust a true expert to do this mod, and I think it could make a world of difference in how the guitar plays and sounds.

But there remains another option: A third, very respected, tech works out of Sam Ash Music. I've never had him do any major work on any of my guitars, but he's received great word of mouth. It just so happens that Sam Ash currently has a used 360/12c63 in stock. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, that guitar has the most comfortable string-spacing of any Rick I've played. I could certainly ask him to measure the bridge and nut of that guitar and use it as a prototype for modding my 360/12. But I'm a little hesitant, because I'd prefer to take the job to a Rick specialist like Chris.

So I'm left with several options. I think that when I receive those replacement nuts from Chris and measure them in comparison to mine, I'll have a better idea of how to proceed. Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll keep you posted on how things go.

Robert

[Folkie]

Simon,

Thanks so much for the photos and for all of your feedback. I'll have to take a close look at my bridge saddles and see how they compare to yours.

Robert

[aceonbass]

Can a stock RIC 6-saddle bridge be used on a 660-12 to achieve wider 1st to last string spacing? My stock 12-saddle bridge is limited where I think a 6-saddle one might not be.

[Folkie]

Can a stock RIC 6-saddle bridge be used on a 660-12 to achieve wider 1st to last string spacing? My stock 12-saddle bridge is limited where I think a 6-saddle one might not be.

That sounds like a question for Todd Bradshaw. Any insights, Todd?

[teb]

My 12-saddle (370WB Arnquist set-up) and my 6-saddle (340 factory stock bridge set-up) are both 50.5mm-51mm on centers from the first string to the last string at the bridge. There is maybe room to expand another milimeter or two if you really wanted to on both, but they look about the same to me. You also have to consider that as you do expand the spread, the strings would get closer to the ends of the frets at the area approaching the heel of the neck. I'm used to that for open chording and playing on the first few frets, but up the neck farther I'm not so sure I'd like it. Playing up high tends to be a bit more creative and free form (I won't say playing lead guitar, since I don't know how) but I kind of get the feeling that I'd be more prone to strings falling off the fingerboard if that extra fret-width cushion was reduced much up there on a 300 series guitar. A 660/12 might be a different story, but I don't have one any more, so I can't say for sure.

For comparison, my Martin twelve has the narrowest neck they make and the spacing measures 59mm at the bridge. For me, at least, it seems to be one of the contributing factors for having slower hands on the Martin. It certainly doesn't have Rickenbacker action (though it does have really nice acoustic twelve action) but you do notice that your hands/fingers have to move farther to do just about anything when compared to the Ricks.

[Folkie]

I just wanted to give everyone the update on the mod to my 360/12. I think I've finally succeeded in combining the best aspects of the 360/12C63 with those of the stock 360/12. Specifically, my 2010 360/12 now has the string-spacing of the George Harrison model, with the rounded cutaway and R tailpiece of the regular 360. (I am not a fan of the trapeze tailpiece or the sharp cutaway on the C63.) The only major difference is the neck radius, which is 10" on mine as compared to 7.25" on the C63. I am very happy with the way the guitar plays and sounds--plenty of chime from that G-pair! And, of course, tuning up is easier with more space between each low and octave string. So both the guitar mods (the one to my 330/12 and the one to my 360/12) have been successful. And I have a new guitar tech and luthier whom I trust to do major work.

[jps]

...The only major difference is the neck radius, which is 10" on mine as compared to 7.25" on the C63...

That can be fixed.

[Folkie]

...The only major difference is the neck radius, which is 10" on mine as compared to 7.25" on the C63...

That can be fixed.