OK I did a little research and this is what I found. This ones long sorry!
Some of you may be interested in this. Please stay with this.
I was worried that I may ruin a good used Ric bass. I sure don't want to do that. So I figured I would crunch some numbers in case my hunch was wrong?
I went to the Just Strings web site and started looking up the strings I would like to use if I do this conversion. Then I took a guess at what the standard strings are that come with a Ric when you buy it new?
I may stand corrected about my choice of original comparison strings seems someone always has an answer when your wrong? Please let me know if I am correct, or mistaken, I want this informtion acurate, not guesswork. OK?
Thanks.
OK I used a set of D'Addario's Nickel soft roundwounds .045-.105 for the comparison. Thought this was fair. they have a tension as follows;
.045 - 42.8 lbs
.065 - 51.3 lbs
.085 - 48.4 lbs
.105 - 40.3 lbs
for a Total of 182.8 lbs
Now I want to use a set of Thomastik - Infeld Nickel Roundwounds .042 - .093 32" scale or
the.
34" scale .043 - 089.
here's the stat's on one of these they are both close.
Still with me?
.042 - 30.42 lbs
.056 - 33.28 lbs
.069 - 28.10 lbs
.093 - 28.95 lbs
Total of 120.75 lbs
The difference between these two sets of strings is real close to 62lbs.
I found a standard set of extra light electric guitar strings from D'Addario 9 - 46's
Without the goory details of each string in lbs the total for these four added strings is 70.1 lbs.
Now I don't know if anyone else agrees that the tension difference between the set that comes standard on a Ric or at least That the Ric 4001 neck is designed to take at least (182.8 lbs) is not much different than that set of T.I's and the guitar strings added together ( 191.75lbs). I will only be addding 9 lbs to that neck.
I'm not seeing any splintering wood myself?
Howd I do?
I'm making my case.
I'm trying to Be The Potato!
I can feel the 8 strings man!
Is this too much or are you guy's having as much fun as I am talking about this Rickenbacker project! This is a Rickenbacker Bass topic right?
Dane I certainly am happy you have posted about this project I am determined to do. Please do not think you points are not well taken. You helped me greatly with my 5 string conversion and that one came out fantastic. I want this one to work as well and although I do agree about using a later 4003 for this I did buy this one for this project. If I ever buy a 4 string Ric. I want it to be something quite special. Checkerboard and some odd color like Turquoise or Burgandy or? That can wait for, for now. So Thanks for the warning You have me doing research on this one. I am worried. But the numbers I am finding are not too bad? I am actually surprised at what I came up with. The extended headstock will add to the problem but it's only an extra inch or so on the length bass strings? I am thinking this is a go. Did you ever get that 5 string done? Post some photo's!
I may redo the headstock on mine as well if this potato head comes out good.
Randy
The Potato Famine is over!
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learning_curve
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Shaun Interesting message. That explains why the Alembic 8 stringers are set up the way they are. I will have to consider this in my design.
I want this to be a real player your right about the upstroke on G & D strings. But I think I can pick up or down on those strings as needed if I set it up with the small string on top all the way through. That way I can get that Ping on some songs or not? It will take a little practice to get used to this but I'm a quick learner like you guy's.
Nice point though certainly one I had not considered.
I want this to be a real player your right about the upstroke on G & D strings. But I think I can pick up or down on those strings as needed if I set it up with the small string on top all the way through. That way I can get that Ping on some songs or not? It will take a little practice to get used to this but I'm a quick learner like you guy's.
Nice point though certainly one I had not considered.
I wonder how much +/- tolerance RIC builds into the 4003's neck? 10%? Gotta be at least a bit of tolerance there....there's only ONE way to find out.....you can do all the figuring you want on PAPER, BUT you'll only know for sure by doing it!!
Real World, by Randy Decker(POTATO MAN)....stay tuned....
...but then of course, it's not MY bass and I'm not out $800.00 if the neck DOES snap....
Hope I helped ,Randy...
Real World, by Randy Decker(POTATO MAN)....stay tuned....
...but then of course, it's not MY bass and I'm not out $800.00 if the neck DOES snap....
Hope I helped ,Randy...
1973 4001 MG cb fwi
1986 4003 Shadow
2012 4004Cii FG w/gold trim
1986 4003 Shadow
2012 4004Cii FG w/gold trim
Randy. When you figured the tension for that second set of strings at 120 lb's you did it for MEDIUM scale strings(32"). The longer the scale, the higher the string tension for a given pitch. You also figured the tension for the guitar strings based on a
25 3/4" scale which is for a guitar! Again, the longer the scale, the higher the tension for a given pitch. Now even though we've all been making jokes about the neck actually snapping, in all seriousness what will happen is that the bow in the neck will be so severe as to make it unplayable. Besides, someone who knows better has been lurking on this thread and agrees with our assesments.
25 3/4" scale which is for a guitar! Again, the longer the scale, the higher the tension for a given pitch. Now even though we've all been making jokes about the neck actually snapping, in all seriousness what will happen is that the bow in the neck will be so severe as to make it unplayable. Besides, someone who knows better has been lurking on this thread and agrees with our assesments.
erm,,, how are you going to use a set of guitar strings for the octave strings? Guitars have a 25inch (or thereabouts scale length)
The email address shown is down, you can email me at [email protected]
mmmm smashed potatos
I gotta agree with Dane, Although Im not quite an engineer yet, I can see all the mechanics are against you.
Chris mentioned a +/- stress tolerance
Im sure it's in there, but for most cases it is to guard agains wood differences. If youve got a particularly strong piece of wood - great. If your on the other end of the tolerence -- well, oops!
If you can find a way to measure tension, you could probably crank down on the 4 strings to see at what point the action becomes unplayable.
In other words, find a way to mimic the tension of 8 strings before you decapitate the beast. Paper is ok, experiment is better!
JP
I gotta agree with Dane, Although Im not quite an engineer yet, I can see all the mechanics are against you.
Chris mentioned a +/- stress tolerance
Im sure it's in there, but for most cases it is to guard agains wood differences. If youve got a particularly strong piece of wood - great. If your on the other end of the tolerence -- well, oops!
If you can find a way to measure tension, you could probably crank down on the 4 strings to see at what point the action becomes unplayable.
In other words, find a way to mimic the tension of 8 strings before you decapitate the beast. Paper is ok, experiment is better!
JP
well, lets just say I think too much.
Go to this site:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/string.html
knowing:
the mass of the string
length of the string
and resonant frequency
youll find the tension
remember the length and mass are only from the bridge to the nut = the effectual vibrating string. and you need somthing like a strobe tuner to find teh frequency.
Anyone know if this works for wound strings. The idea behind teh windings is to increase mass without increasing tension. Im too tired to think about it too much, but since teh frequency is dependant on the mass and tension independantly I woudl assume it works just fine.
So go and find out how many steps up you can tune your 4 string bass before it unplayable.
record the frequency of each string
mark each string where it hits the nut and bridge
cut on the marks
weigh the pieces on a really good scale
(send them to chem class with the neighbor's kid)
then sum your tensions and that will be your max.
obviouslyyou dont wnat to be anywhere near the max - with your truss rods begging for forgivness.
lol, hope to help your project a little. let me know if you understand!!
JP
Go to this site:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/string.html
knowing:
the mass of the string
length of the string
and resonant frequency
youll find the tension
remember the length and mass are only from the bridge to the nut = the effectual vibrating string. and you need somthing like a strobe tuner to find teh frequency.
Anyone know if this works for wound strings. The idea behind teh windings is to increase mass without increasing tension. Im too tired to think about it too much, but since teh frequency is dependant on the mass and tension independantly I woudl assume it works just fine.
So go and find out how many steps up you can tune your 4 string bass before it unplayable.
record the frequency of each string
mark each string where it hits the nut and bridge
cut on the marks
weigh the pieces on a really good scale
(send them to chem class with the neighbor's kid)
then sum your tensions and that will be your max.
obviouslyyou dont wnat to be anywhere near the max - with your truss rods begging for forgivness.
lol, hope to help your project a little. let me know if you understand!!
JP
The accurate way to measure string tension would be to put them on an Tinius Olsen or Instrom static meaesurement machine. http://www.tiniusolsen.com/
http://www.instron.com/wa/products/default.aspx
I don't think it would take much time. You would just need to find a testing laboratory to do it for you. Unfortunately I no longer have access to one so I cannot help other than to set up the test parameters. Another way would be to use a strain gauge. That may be more difficult to set up.
I have a friend who is currently building an 8 string from scratch. He took a Ric scale and eliminated the first fret which reduced the scale to around 32". The problem is with trying to modify an exsisting bass is that you are locked into the bridge and pickup position. I wish you luck with this endeavor. There has been alot of good points brought out in these threads.
http://www.instron.com/wa/products/default.aspx
I don't think it would take much time. You would just need to find a testing laboratory to do it for you. Unfortunately I no longer have access to one so I cannot help other than to set up the test parameters. Another way would be to use a strain gauge. That may be more difficult to set up.
I have a friend who is currently building an 8 string from scratch. He took a Ric scale and eliminated the first fret which reduced the scale to around 32". The problem is with trying to modify an exsisting bass is that you are locked into the bridge and pickup position. I wish you luck with this endeavor. There has been alot of good points brought out in these threads.
"The best things in life aren't things."
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learning_curve
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Wow ! Was anything I said right?
The 34" inch scale strings came out to the same tension by the way and I did mention this Dane. And there are bass strings that are usable in the small gauges I need. I know that. I didn't see a tension guide for the small ones on that site, so I just looked up a set of guitar strings for a comparison. Thought that was close enough.
I stand corrected I guess?
From what I see, the bass strings for these gauges have actually less tension. Because John Hall tells me I need to use lighter octave strings than the guitar string gauges I was thinking of using. 20-25-35-45 or lighter if I want. That's is his suggestion.
This ain't rocket science all I need to do is reduce the heavy strings enough to closely match what this bass is designed to handle. I think that's been done.
I Have to tell you guy's that I recieved the blessings to build this, (what I thought was) simple bass project, from the creator, himself today. I was floored to get two unsolicited email's from John Hall about this project!
Have to give this C.O. some real respect. He actually took the time to explain string gauges, paint, and early neck designs with me! After these emails, from the guy who pilots this huge company, concerning an older Ric bass conversion, and one that has no sales benefit to Rickenbacker & John Hall what so ever, I would buy a Rickenbacker just to own a piece of this company even if I didn't play!
I don't know who it is you have "lurking" Dane but hey I gotta go with this guy! OK?
By the way there are more than 2 of these basses around. John has one in his office. Perhaps one of the reasons for his email. Here I'll post this part of his email;
"Actually . . . I have one sitting right here, part of my personal
collection. Let's also not forget that Chris Hillman had the first one like
this. Squire's was actually a twin to Hillman's that sat around in the
factory for years before I gave it to him."
This potato head is a go. and for those of you who are interested I will post photo's when it's done. If I can figure it out, I didn't do to well the last time?
I am going to increase the tension on a first generation 4003 neck by about 5% or 9 extra lbs.
put your calculators away.
Like John said, as long as that bass has not been overstressed by a set of Mondo Roto's it should hold just fine!
He also recommended using slight hand pressure on the neck to adjust the rods a little at a time over a period of a few days to reset the rods if needed.
Guess I will have a fun project for the winter afterall!
Randy
The 34" inch scale strings came out to the same tension by the way and I did mention this Dane. And there are bass strings that are usable in the small gauges I need. I know that. I didn't see a tension guide for the small ones on that site, so I just looked up a set of guitar strings for a comparison. Thought that was close enough.
I stand corrected I guess?
From what I see, the bass strings for these gauges have actually less tension. Because John Hall tells me I need to use lighter octave strings than the guitar string gauges I was thinking of using. 20-25-35-45 or lighter if I want. That's is his suggestion.
This ain't rocket science all I need to do is reduce the heavy strings enough to closely match what this bass is designed to handle. I think that's been done.
I Have to tell you guy's that I recieved the blessings to build this, (what I thought was) simple bass project, from the creator, himself today. I was floored to get two unsolicited email's from John Hall about this project!
Have to give this C.O. some real respect. He actually took the time to explain string gauges, paint, and early neck designs with me! After these emails, from the guy who pilots this huge company, concerning an older Ric bass conversion, and one that has no sales benefit to Rickenbacker & John Hall what so ever, I would buy a Rickenbacker just to own a piece of this company even if I didn't play!
I don't know who it is you have "lurking" Dane but hey I gotta go with this guy! OK?
By the way there are more than 2 of these basses around. John has one in his office. Perhaps one of the reasons for his email. Here I'll post this part of his email;
"Actually . . . I have one sitting right here, part of my personal
collection. Let's also not forget that Chris Hillman had the first one like
this. Squire's was actually a twin to Hillman's that sat around in the
factory for years before I gave it to him."
This potato head is a go. and for those of you who are interested I will post photo's when it's done. If I can figure it out, I didn't do to well the last time?
I am going to increase the tension on a first generation 4003 neck by about 5% or 9 extra lbs.
put your calculators away.
Like John said, as long as that bass has not been overstressed by a set of Mondo Roto's it should hold just fine!
He also recommended using slight hand pressure on the neck to adjust the rods a little at a time over a period of a few days to reset the rods if needed.
Guess I will have a fun project for the winter afterall!
Randy
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atomic_punk
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learning_curve
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incubus2432
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I think it is great that you are doing this as a project and I think it is very cool that Mr. Hall took the time to offer his input. With his blessing and the will of millions potatoes in need of representation I'm sure you'll succeed and I look forward to the pics and your postings of your progress.
Personally, I'm a tinkerer and figure out my projects one step at a time without overanalyzing and I've never thought you'd have an issue with the eight string conversion. I really would not think the extra light gauge strings would pose enough of a problem to cause a failure. There are plenty of people on this board smarter than me that said otherwise so I figured maybe I was missing something. I guess we shall see. Good Luck !
Personally, I'm a tinkerer and figure out my projects one step at a time without overanalyzing and I've never thought you'd have an issue with the eight string conversion. I really would not think the extra light gauge strings would pose enough of a problem to cause a failure. There are plenty of people on this board smarter than me that said otherwise so I figured maybe I was missing something. I guess we shall see. Good Luck !