12 string intonation
Moderator: jingle_jangle
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Juston_Smithers
12 string intonation
I recently purchased a 620/12 and I'm trying to intonate it properly. I'm having trouble with the low E string and its octave string. The trouble is that, while the octave string is perfectly intonated, the low E is slightly sharp. Since both are on the same saddle, properly intonating one string means that the other will be off. The guitar still has the strings on it from the shop . . . could it be that improper guages were used to string the guitar? If not, what can I do to intonate BOTH strings properly?
Juston -
You will not be able to get your intonation EXACT using a six saddle bridge.
There are quite a lot of threads on this site regarding 12 string intonation and twelve saddle bridges.
Having just gone through all of this myself, I decided to put a twelve saddle bridge on my 360/12v64. The replacement bridge will cost you $79 from RIC
You will not be able to get your intonation EXACT using a six saddle bridge.
There are quite a lot of threads on this site regarding 12 string intonation and twelve saddle bridges.
Having just gone through all of this myself, I decided to put a twelve saddle bridge on my 360/12v64. The replacement bridge will cost you $79 from RIC
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Juston_Smithers
Intonation by definition is a compromise. Fixed note instruments can never be perfect across their entire sonic range for every given interval. Ric used a six saddle bridge early on when (I assume) there was a practicale reason not to provide a twelve saddle bridge. They do provide twelve saddle bridges now.
Acoustic guitars generally don't have adjustable saddles and most have a single biece of bone (or ivory-like material) in a slot. While the top of the bridge of an acoustic is generally filed to compensate, the actual thickness of the piece would need to be more than what most makers supply.
Mark Arnquist could send you a photo of a compensated acoustic saddle he's been working on.
Acoustic guitars generally don't have adjustable saddles and most have a single biece of bone (or ivory-like material) in a slot. While the top of the bridge of an acoustic is generally filed to compensate, the actual thickness of the piece would need to be more than what most makers supply.
Mark Arnquist could send you a photo of a compensated acoustic saddle he's been working on.
It has been my understanding that the Vintage 12's use the 6 saddle bridge because they are set up exactly as the original models were - and back in '64, the 6 saddle was what they used.
On my 360/12v64 (universally acclaimed as the most beautiful guitar in the world
) I have always used the Rick brand strings set, and my intonation has been acceptably good. I'm about to try a set of Pyramids, which are of slightly different gauge, and may require different intonation...
So the 12 saddle bridge is most likely worth the $80, and would not diminish the value of the instrument, as you would still have the original 6 saddle unit in your posession.
Am I correct in assuming that a new 12 saddle bridge unit will simply "replace" the 6 saddle one, with no major alterations necessary?
(Perhaps Mark can chime in on this one...)
And Mark, one further thing; I saw those gorgeous photos of the 12 saddle setup you did on that CW 12 string. Do you feel that moving the bridge slightly, as you did there, is always necessary, or is it sometimes just a matter of replacing the part? And have you had similar experiences with 360/12v64's?
Thanks! Gene
On my 360/12v64 (universally acclaimed as the most beautiful guitar in the world
) I have always used the Rick brand strings set, and my intonation has been acceptably good. I'm about to try a set of Pyramids, which are of slightly different gauge, and may require different intonation... So the 12 saddle bridge is most likely worth the $80, and would not diminish the value of the instrument, as you would still have the original 6 saddle unit in your posession.
Am I correct in assuming that a new 12 saddle bridge unit will simply "replace" the 6 saddle one, with no major alterations necessary?
(Perhaps Mark can chime in on this one...)
And Mark, one further thing; I saw those gorgeous photos of the 12 saddle setup you did on that CW 12 string. Do you feel that moving the bridge slightly, as you did there, is always necessary, or is it sometimes just a matter of replacing the part? And have you had similar experiences with 360/12v64's?
Thanks! Gene
The moving factor is instrument to instrument ...I NEVER assume the bridge is ever in the correct location on any 12 string ,made by any company.
Any six string made pre-1990 is also a subject for checking .This is for electrics and acoustics.
Pre 1960's guitars are the worst ,any brand!
I do exactly what I said in the posting on ......"How to intonate a 12 string"
For those Grammar experts .....yes I know that it is proper to say -INTONE the guitar ,but only a rare few say this .They are also the ones that complain about a Floyd Rose Tremolo (it is really a vibrato).I got over it long ago.
"Do I feel that it is always necessary to move the bridge?"
Yes if it is in the wrong location and the low E string can not be intonated .Nor will removing the spring help.
Replacing the bridge will not change the location .They are dimensionally the 'same'.
I have had this experience with every model of 12 string that Rick makes.Just not every guitar.
You noticed on that guitar ,that the saddles were basically centered in the whole chassis of the bridge .
If you go to Roger McGuinn's site ,his are jammed to the screw head side and the A standard and the low E standard are ALL the way back against the chassis.
I know of no guitar ,6 string nor 12 string that having both the A and Low E compensated equal length from the fretboard will allow your tuning to be correct .This includes Classical guitars.
Any six string made pre-1990 is also a subject for checking .This is for electrics and acoustics.
Pre 1960's guitars are the worst ,any brand!
I do exactly what I said in the posting on ......"How to intonate a 12 string"
For those Grammar experts .....yes I know that it is proper to say -INTONE the guitar ,but only a rare few say this .They are also the ones that complain about a Floyd Rose Tremolo (it is really a vibrato).I got over it long ago.
"Do I feel that it is always necessary to move the bridge?"
Yes if it is in the wrong location and the low E string can not be intonated .Nor will removing the spring help.
Replacing the bridge will not change the location .They are dimensionally the 'same'.
I have had this experience with every model of 12 string that Rick makes.Just not every guitar.
You noticed on that guitar ,that the saddles were basically centered in the whole chassis of the bridge .
If you go to Roger McGuinn's site ,his are jammed to the screw head side and the A standard and the low E standard are ALL the way back against the chassis.
I know of no guitar ,6 string nor 12 string that having both the A and Low E compensated equal length from the fretboard will allow your tuning to be correct .This includes Classical guitars.
So you too want yours "ALAPWOB"?!?!
Think carefully: The Pyramid strings that came on my 660/12 had that classic Byrds sound but the hand-to-string friction was something different than I'd ever felt before, having never used flat wounds. They were also extremely stiff to play. Have a set of Rick strings on it now and had to "intone" it to get it to play true, however. May be somewhat of a heretic but I think the Rick strings have better feel and sound unless you're going strictly for a Byrds-type tone. The intone-ing hassle between the two brands of string means I won't be changing any time soon either.
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Juston_Smithers
I finally broke down and purchased a 12 saddle bridge. When I lined it up in the bridge plate, I realized it's off center and that the bridge plate needs to be moved. With the 6 saddle bridge, my intonation was off . . . now with the 12 saddle, I need to move the bridge entirely.
I'm getting a little frustrated; I want a guitar that sounds good without all this extra hassle and expense.
I read Mark's post on how to move the bridge plate (which I wouldn't attempt to do myself and for which a professional would probably charge an arm and a leg). Shouldn't this kind of thing be covered under warranty? Is it common for Rickenbacker to send out off-center bridge plates on new 12 strings (since the 6 saddle bridge allows more leway)? I don't know much about servicing guitars (I figured that I would get a perfect product buying from Ric) but the more I try and deal with this intonation problem, the more problems that surface. If Rickenbacker makes the world's best 12 strings, then why would they send out a product with so many problems? Please help!!!
I'm getting a little frustrated; I want a guitar that sounds good without all this extra hassle and expense.
I read Mark's post on how to move the bridge plate (which I wouldn't attempt to do myself and for which a professional would probably charge an arm and a leg). Shouldn't this kind of thing be covered under warranty? Is it common for Rickenbacker to send out off-center bridge plates on new 12 strings (since the 6 saddle bridge allows more leway)? I don't know much about servicing guitars (I figured that I would get a perfect product buying from Ric) but the more I try and deal with this intonation problem, the more problems that surface. If Rickenbacker makes the world's best 12 strings, then why would they send out a product with so many problems? Please help!!!
Juston - where are you (in the country)?
Moving the bridge plate will take you perhaps a half hour (don't ask Mark for times - he can restring a twelve string in 3.5 minutes and do a complete refret job before his coffee gets cold...
All you have to do is take the old one off, plug the holes with a 1/8" dowel that you can buy for 0.63 at you hardware store and remount the plate.
This means that you would need a 24" straight edge of some description to hold up against the sides of the fretboard/neck on each side to see where the edge would be in the bridge area. Mark a small mark (Mark suggests puttin a piece of tape down to "catch" the marks - then measuring in from each side to located the new hole centers.
Where did you purchase the guitar? I'm sure they have somebody there who would remount the bridge plate on center for you (while you're at it, you may as well add some compensation too - it made a world of difference on mine).
You'll also need to file the saddle slots.
email me if you need moral support - I just finished doing this over the past weekend.
Moving the bridge plate will take you perhaps a half hour (don't ask Mark for times - he can restring a twelve string in 3.5 minutes and do a complete refret job before his coffee gets cold...
All you have to do is take the old one off, plug the holes with a 1/8" dowel that you can buy for 0.63 at you hardware store and remount the plate.
This means that you would need a 24" straight edge of some description to hold up against the sides of the fretboard/neck on each side to see where the edge would be in the bridge area. Mark a small mark (Mark suggests puttin a piece of tape down to "catch" the marks - then measuring in from each side to located the new hole centers.
Where did you purchase the guitar? I'm sure they have somebody there who would remount the bridge plate on center for you (while you're at it, you may as well add some compensation too - it made a world of difference on mine).
You'll also need to file the saddle slots.
email me if you need moral support - I just finished doing this over the past weekend.
Setting up a guitar is part of any new acquisition and adjustments can be expected regardless of the make. Moreover, adjustments are required as the guitar responds to changes in the weather and handling. In the end, we either accept the slight imperfections of our instrument or we consult a professional. No matter what instrument we purchase, it is likely that some aspect will not suit our particular playing style and ultimately we will modify it. The good news is that there is a solution to most of our concerns. Rickenbackers, as all other guitars, have evolved over the course of time and each one has its own special characteristics. There is always a trade off between the functional versus the aesthetic or historic. Fortunately, we are usually able to find a balance and happily play on.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
As to the trade-off between functional vs historic, I'm NOT a historic FANATIC but by jingo, the darn thing better be tuneable!!
I'm VERY pleased with how my reposition/replacement bridge job turned out.
With the cover over the bridge, you can NOT tell the guitar isn't a stock 360/12v64 unless you are looking directly at the back of the bridge and can see the twelve adjusting screw heads (where the old bridge had only six which were of a different shape).
Most people will NEVER notice the visual difference and the IMPROVEMENT this all makes to the ears is DRAMATIC!!
I'm VERY pleased with how my reposition/replacement bridge job turned out.
With the cover over the bridge, you can NOT tell the guitar isn't a stock 360/12v64 unless you are looking directly at the back of the bridge and can see the twelve adjusting screw heads (where the old bridge had only six which were of a different shape).
Most people will NEVER notice the visual difference and the IMPROVEMENT this all makes to the ears is DRAMATIC!!
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Juston_Smithers
I'm probably going to end up moving my bridge as well. I can understand having to make slight adjustments on a new guitar to accomodate a particular style/taste. Having to reposition the bridge because the factory didn't center it to begin with is quite another. Mine's a good 1/4" off-center. Getting a bridge dead on center isn't a preference issue; nobody wants an off-center bridge. It doesn't seem like that would be too hard to get right before the final product is sent out. I don't mean to pick a fight here, but doesn't that qualify as faulty workmanship?