String-Spacing Confusion

[Folkie]

I’ve had the occasion to play the devil’s advocate on a number of recent threads here discussing string-spacing on the 300-series Rickenbacker 12-string models. I was informed here about a year ago that, as of 2005, the factory had started tightening up the individual string pairs in order to allow more space between pairs to accommodate players with larger hands. When my 2010 360/12 arrived, the string-spacing was so tight that I could barely fit my .50mm pick in between courses to tune up. I couldn’t imagine that those courses could possibly be any closer.

In a recent thread here, various players talked about the advantages of replacing the standard 360/12 nut with a new bone nut that allowed greater comfort playing open chords, especially the ever troublesome C-chord. I put in my two cents, saying the stock string-spacing was about as tight as possible, and that I’d never had any issues playing standard chord voicings on either of my 12-strings.

I stand corrected. Yesterday, at Sam Ash, I played a brand new 360/12, which I was told had just arrived from the factory, and the spacing between courses was extremely wide, more so even than on my 1991 330/12. What most struck me was how far apart the individual strings in the G, B, and high E pairs were. I’ve never had problems with the narrow necks, but this time I had trouble shifting between chords without damping strings when playing songs like Tom Petty’s “The Waiting” and R.E.M.’s “So. Central Rain.” The guitar took a moment to get used to.

What was the motivation for this recent change in string-spacing, and why wasn’t it announced here? Could it be that my enormous clout on the Rickenbacker Resource Forum led the factory to readopt a wider string-spacing that would be closer to my tastes?

Robert

[jps]

What was the motivation for this recent change in string-spacing, and why wasn’t it announced here? Could it be that my enormous clout on the Rickenbacker Resource Forum led the factory to readopt a wider string-spacing that would be closer to my tastes?

Robert

Graham (your favorite sales drone), at our local Sam Ash, had a nice talk with RIC about you.

[stsang]

Could it be that my enormous clout on the Rickenbacker Resource Forum led the factory to readopt a wider string-spacing that would be closer to my tastes?

Robert

Hi Robert,

This is the topic that never dies! Good to see you continuing to fight the good fight for the perfect 12-string spacing. I don't see much difference in the nut between my '02 360/12 and my '10 360/12c63. The c63's string spacing at the bridge is slightly wider though. The action on my c63 is also a little bit higher.

All the best,
Simon

[Folkie]

Could it be that my enormous clout on the Rickenbacker Resource Forum led the factory to readopt a wider string-spacing that would be closer to my tastes?

Robert

Hi Robert,

This is the topic that never dies! Good to see you continuing to fight the good fight for the perfect 12-string spacing. I don't see much difference in the nut between my '02 360/12 and my '10 360/12c63. The c63's string spacing at the bridge is slightly wider though. The action on my c63 is also a little bit higher.

All the best,
Simon

Hi Simon,

In January of this year, Chris Clayton at Pick of the Ricks was kind enough to send me two 12-string nuts for comparison: one for the stock 360/12 and the other (I believe) for the C63. Before he sent them, he told me that Richard at the Ric factory had said that the string-spacing on the two nuts was identical. As far as I could tell, Richard (and you) were correct.

The new, wider, string-spacing is quite an innovation. I periodically check the wall at Sam Ash for new and used Ric 12-strings, and I've played them all, so I would suspect that Rickenbacker has just made this change, possibly over the last few weeks or months. Kudos to them for having the guts to make an adjustment that, in my opinion, improves not just the way the guitars play, but the way they sound as well.

It would be nice to get some confirmation from the folks at Rickenbacker about this change. Players who want a tighter string-spacing will always have the option of replacing the nut, as is recommended in so many threads here.

Robert

[Folkie]

What was the motivation for this recent change in string-spacing, and why wasn’t it announced here? Could it be that my enormous clout on the Rickenbacker Resource Forum led the factory to readopt a wider string-spacing that would be closer to my tastes?

Robert

Graham (your favorite sales drone), at our local Sam Ash, had a nice talk with RIC about you.

So give me the lowdown, Jeff! What exactly did Graham have to say? Did he pick up any kernels of wisdom from the conversation I had with him?

[jps]

Did he pick up any kernels of wisdom from the conversation I had with him?

From what I can tell, absolutely, not!

[stsang]

It would be nice to get some confirmation from the folks at Rickenbacker about this change.

Yeah - it would be nice to hear from RIC about this.

[johnhall]

Good to see you continuing to fight the good fight for the perfect 12-string spacing.

No such thing. Everybody has a different idea about this, based on their personal preference.

[Folkie]

Good to see you continuing to fight the good fight for the perfect 12-string spacing.

No such thing. Everybody has a different idea about this, based on their personal preference.

I'm very flattered that John Hall has chimed in on this thread, and I totally agree with him that string-spacing is one of the most subjective preferences relating to 12-string guitars. What works for me may not work for other players. Why does my 330/12 feel and sound totally different from my 360/12? And why does my modded 360/12 feel and sound totally different from the same guitar with its original nut? The slightest difference in spacing can have the most dramatic effect on the way these guitars play and sound. I'm still searching for some confirmation from the factory that the stock nut for the 360/12 has been adjusted. IMHO, the wider courses are right on the money for my playing style and for the sound I'm looking for!

[Folkie]

I just spoke to Chris Clayton at POTR, and he compared a 2010 360/12 and a new 360/12 from off his wall. He said that, although there is a difference in the string-spacing, it's not too dramatic, certainly not as dramatic as the difference I observed. He said he has not experienced much variation in the width of the string-courses on the 360 models. He did say, however, that he's noticed a substantial variation in string-spacing among different 660/12 models. At any rate, it looks like the guitar I played at Sam Ash was not representative of the 360/12's that are currently leaving the factory. My next step will be to try to contact Richard Cannata at the Ric factory. I just called and he was out of the office. I'll post again after I speak to him.

Robert

[stsang]

At any rate, it looks like the guitar I played at Sam Ash was not representative of the 360/12's that are currently leaving the factory.

Are they modding the guitars at this Sam Ash? I remember you said that the 360/12c63 you tried at that Sam Ash appears to have different spacing too...

My next step will be to try to contact Richard Cannata at the Ric factory. I just called and he was out of the office. I'll post again after I speak to him.Robert

Thanks!

[Folkie]

To my knowledge, Simon, the folks at my Sam Ash are not modding their Ric 12-Strings. My salesperson swore up and down that the new 360/12 in question had just arrived from the factory and had not even been set up by their guitar tech. And the 360/12c63 I used as a prototype was much older, probably pre-2005, although, as I’ll explain next, there are other factors that affect how these nuts are cut.

I was unable to reach Richard Cannata, but another rep who had contacted him told me what you and I already know, which is that Ric started tightening up their 12-string pairs around 2005. So what Chris Clayton said about 660/12 models must also apply to the current 360/12’s, namely that there is a large degree of variation in the way the nuts are cut at the factory. And, since each of us has a different idea of what the "right" string-spacing is, the whole process is inevitably subjective.

I must say that I’m very happy with how the experiment with my 2010 360/12 turned out. I guess we should all remember that there’s no substitute for playing a guitar before purchase, to make sure the string-spacing is comfortable. But if it turns out that isn’t the case, there’s always the option of having a knowledgeable luthier recut a nut (and renotch a bridge) to ones personal specs. Many here have gone that route, and are very happy with the results.

Robert

[jps]

Are they modding the guitars at this Sam Ash?

That would be highly unlikely.

[teb]

Just out of curiosity.....why is this such a big deal that we need several threads going on at the same time on the front page of the forum? When I buy a Rickenbacker twelve, the string spacing is about the last thing I worry about because I know that it's one of the things that can be changed to suit my playing style, or that of any other player. I'm not at all convinced after owning three eventually-modified hollow body Rickenbacker twelves and a 660/12 (plus a Framus twelve, a Guild twelve, two Takamine twelves and two Martin twelves) that the spacing has much to do with the sound (other than possibly eliminating damped strings stuck into your chords). I have no clue what the current RIC factory nut spacing is, how long it may have been that way or how consistent they are from one guitar to the next - but what I do know is that it can be changed as needed, and that would seem to be the most important factor to me. If you can live with the overall narrow nature of the Rickenbacker neck, you should be able to get one to play and sound the way you would like it to

[Folkie]

Simon,

I was incorrect when I suggested that the older 360/12c63 I played at Sam Ash may have been a pre-2005 model. You mentioned in another thread that the 360/12c63 model was introduced in 2005. So the wider courses on my prototype must have been a deviation from the really tight ones we typically see on those models.

As for the claim that string-spacing doesn't warrant as much attention as it's been given in my two threads, please note that numerous other threads have recently appeared on exactly this subject. If we can have 31 posts on toggle switches, 16 posts on strap locks, and 22 posts on foam pads vs. rubber grommets, can't we have a few on string-spacing?

Robert