Toaster? HG? HB-1? Other? Which one for "fattest" sound?

[vulcan_creedler]

Dane - I AM intending to use use a 0.047 cap ONLY on the hi gain! Definately .022 on the HB1!!!!! Following your advice from a previous post!

I was unsure whether or not to use a 250k or 500k for the hi-gain neck volume (they are currently 250k) but the update work has yet to start! With a 250k and a 500k the middle position impedance goes down to approx 167k, hence the thoughts about using both at 500k, so that the middle postion is only down to 250k. I have no idea why this is so important, but rapidly learning! . I've bought a few under-rated CTS pots at approx 390-410k so I may try those for Hi-gain volume too. Plenty of experiments ahead!

I've even considered abandoning two of the pots altogether, and having just a single volume and tone, same as the 4004, with the other pots only there to "fill the holes"

Anyhow, as the the 4003 currently stands, I did have a noticeable volume drop-off with both pickups selected (current config is hi gain bridge and HB-1 neck). My thoughts were possibly "out-of-phase" so I switched the blue and red wires over on the HB1 to reverse the phase, and it actually made a big difference. Could it be possible that the HB-1s and hi-gains are naturally out-of-phase?

So my stock of pickups available for both basses is:

1978 Hi gain Bridge (original to the 4001)
1978 Hi Gain Neck (as above, but rewound when it was dead, to about 8k)
1982 Hi gain bridge.
2011 Hi gain bridge 11k
2012 Hi gain Neck 11k (x 2)
2012 HB1 (x2)

I have a whole plethora of CTS pots, 500k push/pull pots, and plenty of 0.047uF, 0.0047uF and 0.022 uF caps too! Some original, some new!

So my options are quite wide. All I know is that I don't care too much for the original 4001 hi gains. I really want as much oomph out of both of the basses as possible, whilst retaining the classic ric growl. Maybe I should be sensible, and have one bass with 2x HB1 pickups, and treat it like it was a 4004, and the second bass with modern Hi-gains, and 4003 wiring (with 250k/500k vol/tone pots)

Suffice it to say, my soldering skills are improving!

[aceonbass]

I would definitely give each pickup it's own volume, tone and tone cap since the character of each pickup is different, and it will give you more tone possibilities. I'm not really sure why the two different pickups combined do what they do, but if you're going to coil tap (actually coil short) the HB1, I don't think it will work with the two wires reversed. I do think a 250K volume for the single coil is best. At least that's the way I have my current 4003 wired.I wish there were a definitively best way of doing this, but no one who knows for sure ever seems to chime in on these types of discussions. Maybe there is no "best" way, and there's always some kind of compromise. I've found on my 3-pickup 4003 (2-HB1's & a RIHS) that rolling back the HS a bit works well when combined. I actually leave it that way all the time as it's a bit hotter than the 2-HB1's combined.

[vulcan_creedler]

Dane - thanks so much for all your help and suggestions - seriously appreciated, over this side of the pond.

I'm kind of leaning towards a Higain and HB1 on each bass, if only to have two matched-sound basses for stagework, both with balls!

So I think we're agreeing the following config:

HB1 bridge, 500k vol, 500k tone, 0.022uF cap (possibly a coil tap and/or vinatge 0.0047uF option)
Higain neck, 250k vol, 500k tone, 0.047uF cap (I may experiment with a 390k for vol)

I will be sure to keep you posted of any subtle variations/findings, especially due to the mixing of 11k/15k pickups, and issues like phase!

Guy

[aceonbass]

Sounds good, and you're welcome. Anything above 250K on the hi-gain volume though will make the sound brighter. This is why 500K volume pots and .022uF tone caps make an HB1 sound brighter on the top end and more "Rick-like". You could use 500K push-pulls for both pots on the HB1. One could be used as a coil tap, and the other to bring in the .0047uF vintage tone cap.

[Oz_Greg]

.
The eventual outcome:

(Sorry I haven't posted this earlier)

I fitted the HB1 and High Gain pickups, along with the push-pull and standard pots to my 1980 Ric 4001.
After much fiddling I have decided to just leave the wiring as it is, each pickup sounds great, push-pull works fine, etc.
Strangely, after fitting the HB1 seeking a fuller sound I find myself leaning towards the high gain, I just like the sound of it better.

Sure, I need to back the volume off slightly on one of the pickups to get maximum volume from the centre toggle-switch position, but I think I can live with that. I tried reversing the polarity of one of the pickups (can't recall which now) and from memory it made no difference.

A big thank you goes out to Dane (aceonbass) for all of his help, before and after sale of all the parts I used.
His OEM Ric prices are the cheapest I've seen and he's a great guy to boot!

Greg

[vulcan_creedler]

All done!

On both my 4001 and the 4003, I now have:

11k hi gain neck, 250k volume pot, 500k tone pot, 0.047uF tone capacitor.
15k HB1 bridge, 420k volume pot, 500k tone pot, 0.022uF tone capacitor.

All pots are CTS, and capacitors are Sprage Orange-Drop.

The only difference is the push/pull on the 4001 tone pot with the HB1, for the vintage 0.0047 tone capacitor!

As before, on the HB1, I put the red to ground, and the blue to to hot, having discovered that HB1's and Hi gains seem to be naturally out of phase. It's easier to reverse the phase on the HB1 than on the Hi-gain.

Sound is absolutely awesome - pure Ric, but just vast amount of oomph.

Comparing the 4001 with its original pickups prior to its upgrade, and the upgraded 4003 was amazing - a huge contrast!

For what it's worth, and in my humble opinion, an HB1 in a current 4003 should be an option on a new bass - the combination with the hi gain in the neck position is just amazing!!!!!!!!! Wish I'd this work ages ago!

[Oz_Greg]

.
Guy,

Now the $54,000 question .....

Do you get full volume with both volume pots on max and the toggle in the centre position?

It seems some of us (me included) have to back the volume off on one pot slightly to get full volume.

Greg

[vulcan_creedler]

Greg,

when I had the HB1 in the neck, and the Hi gain in the bridge, with the HB1 wired red to hot and blue to ground, I had to back right off, to find a sweet spot! This completely went away when I reversed the blue/red wires.

Now I have the HB1 in the bridge, and a new Hi gain in the neck, and I went straight in with reversed red/blue on the HB1, and the combined volume increases imperceptably with a slight back off on the bass vol pot, it's not worth bothering about. the combined volume is just as loud as either pickup individually.

Actually, I'll reserve final judgement on that last comment, until I put the basses through my big stack on Wednesday, at rehearsals. Even putting the 4003 through my son's Marshall guitar amp, it sounded good - VERY good!!!!!

Guy

[Charlie Goodnight]

Welcome, Greg! Check to see if the .0047µF capacitor that is in-line with the bridge pickup is there. This cap deliberately cuts the bottom end from that pickup; if it is there put a piece of wire across the leads of that cap and you will find the bottom end you seek.

BTW, put the original pickups back in the bass!

Jeff to the rescue!!! ...AGAIN!!!

[vulcan_creedler]

Greg!

Another update!

Both my 4001 and my 4003 are now fully upgraded.

I was still concerned over the "phase" issue, so on the 4003, I soldered a couple of wires to the red and the blue wires of the HB1, and a third wire from the hot connection on the pickup switch. I fed these 3 wire through the stereo socket, put the pickguard back on, wrapped an earth wire around a string, behind of the bridge, and got experimenting! (sort of a Heath-Robinson manual phase switch )

Just to confirm, 110% confirmed, that, if fitting an HB1 alongside a HiGain, to avoid centre position drop-off of volume, fit the HB1 red wire to ground, and the blue wire to hot. So I was right first time!

Definitive!!!!

Slight modification since last time. I found that the 0.0047 cap in conjunction with the HB1 was pointless - it seemed to lose to many mids as well as lows. So, I simply rewired the push/pull as a coil tap instead. For me, at least, the single coil sound is far more useful than the vintage sound, especially in conjunction with the neck hi gain. It actually reverts to being a lot nearer stock 4003 sound. My drummer (AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHH DRUMMERS!!!!!!) always shouts at me to turn down, so a quick tug of the push/pull just knocks a bit of gain off too! A drummer appeasement switch!

VC

[Oz_Greg]

.

Just to confirm, 110% confirmed, that, if fitting an HB1 alongside a HiGain, to avoid centre position drop-off of volume, fit the HB1 red wire to ground, and the blue wire to hot. So I was right first time!

I thought I had tried this and it did nothing. In restrospect I sort of tried it....
I had the blue wire joined with another wire to the toggle switch when I was testing stuff.

I checked again and ran just the blue wire alone to the toggle, with all others to earth and BINGO !!! No volume drop in the middle position!

Thanks VC!!!! You just made my day!

Greg

[aceonbass]

.Thanks VC!!!! You just made my day!Greg

Mine too

[vulcan_creedler]

.
I checked again and ran just the blue wire alone to the toggle, with all others to earth and BINGO !!! No volume drop in the middle position!

Thanks VC!!!! You just made my day!

Greg

Greg - so long as you DIDN'T run the black/clear soldered joint to earth - you'll be fine! If you have, you'll have coil-tapped the HB1!!!

That black/clear joint ought to be safely out of the way of the red and the shield anyhow!

Guy

[Oz_Greg]

Greg - so long as you DIDN'T run the black/clear soldered joint to earth - you'll be fine! If you have, you'll have coil-tapped the HB1!!!
That black/clear joint ought to be safely out of the way of the red and the shield anyhow!
Guy

Guy,

I can't recall what "Coil-tapped" means, but I did solder the black/clear to earth along with the others.
The push-pull treble knob works perfectly.
I can definately hear the change in sound in each position.
"Out" is thinner sounding and "in" is much fatter.

Greg

[Badanovski]

Coil tapped refers to the fact that you have turned your humbucker into a single coil pickup. The 4 wires give you acess to the 2 coils on the HB-1. By soldering 3 of the wires to ground you have grounded out 1 of the coils .