Pete Townshend's guitar?

[stilt-the-wilt]

First post, so Hi one and all...

i have 2 Ricky's a 2000 360/6 and a 1964 1997

I've been trying to find out if this second guitar is possibly one of Pete's Rickenbackers from the mid sixties but getting any help on the matter is difficult to say the least!
I've owned this guitar since 1991 and I must stress I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION of selling it!

A few things about the guitar (please see pics attached...)

it's a "Rose Morris" (British) import of a Rickenbacker 330 known in this country as a 1997
Rick lovers will know this is different to the standard USA models by the F hole rather than a cat's eye soundhole, they reportedly have a slimmer neck than the USA model and only 21 frets where the USA ones have 24

The serial number the guitar shows it was manufactured in May 1964 and would have originally been fireglo in colour (Small traces of the original colour can be seen on the inside of the guitar under the scratchplate/controls assembly) (I've had the fact that it's a 60's guitar verified by a Rickenbacker specialist)

When I bought the guitar back in 1991 it was a solid red colour and the neck was broken at the heel. I had the guitar professionally repaired and re-finished in Black (Jetglo). Whilst it was being repaired the luthier told me that the neck had been broken in 2 other places but had been repaired before which is probably why it had been re-finished in Red.

Also there's certain things about the guitar which are incorrect, Firstly I believe it should have a Rickenbacker "accent" Vibrato arm or the "Trapeze" tailpiece instead of the "R" tailpiece, secondly the control knobs should be all black (Rather than having the silver insert in the middle of them as per the standard 330 knobs, thirdly the "Rickenbacker" nameplate on the head is the incorrect type for this year of guitar, it's got Grover machine heads where they should be Schallers and finally the pickups were mounted incorrectly on double sided sticky foam blocks rather than rubber grommets. (One of the pickups had to be replaced a couple of years back by a Ricky specialist and the original one that was on it had been bodged together quite badly with bits of tape and cardboard!)

This all leads me to believe it's a "Bitsa" and has been made up of parts from several guitars. This perhaps ties in with the famous photo of Pete with his smashed rickenbackers hanging behind him, the said guitars famous for having been "taken by a roadie for his dad to repair and never being seen by Pete again"
It was also rumoured that in the 60's that Pete had several of his guitars modified to suit his own particular requirements.

I appreciate that all of the above is very circumstantial and trying to verify any of it is very much subject to opinion and various people's views although I'd be more than happy to talk to Pete about it (Yeah right - like that's going to happen!!) I'm also very much aware that Pete must be asked about this kind of thing all the time.

All that said it's the favourite in my collection of guitars and is a dream to play... And it's definitely Not for sale and never will be!!

Anyone got any ideas on verifying any of this??

[cjj]

I can't really answer any of your questions (heck, I'm a bass guy, so what do I know about those skinny stringed things anyway?), but there are lots of others here who know this sort of info. Welcome to the RRF!

[scotty]

Best to look under the hood it wont take too long.Looks like its got a new TRC there will probably be an extra hole under the TRC where the original plexi one was.The R tail piece is another replacement the original would have had a Accent.If you take off the R tailpiece there might be some tell tale signs of one.On the ramp there might be a depression in the paint that suggests there was a Accent on there (although if its had 2 coats of paint its doubtful) look at the strapbolt on the end of the guitar for any extra holes while your there to see what tailpiece this might have had.The rubber grommets arent a big issue the foam is just a mounting pad you can easily change back.The guitar knobs can be changed out also.Nice guitar with all that being said the Overspray in the slashhole is probably the worst thing about it (Im presuming its black paint in the cavity of the guitar it looks like it in the picture)all the rest are easily put right.Was this Townshends who knows it would be difficult to find out for sure.

[stilt-the-wilt]

No tell tale signs anywhere, it was professionally refinished about !5 years ago and I never got to see the stripped guitar...

Nobody seems to be able to point me in the right direction on the townshend thing!!

[8mileshigh]

No way of telling I'm afraid.

[collin]

Hi Dave, welcome.

Cool guitar, great story, but that's not one of Pete's guitars.

Here's some more info:

1.) Your guitar may be a US-domestic market 330S model. These were the same as a Rose Morris 1997, but with an R-tailpiece or trapeze tailpiece (take your tailpiece off and snap a photo of the screw holes, this might tell you some info). These were sent to US dealers, not exported to Rose Morris. They also had the silver knobs. Yours also does not have a roller bridge, which would have been standard equipment on any Rose Morris model (which all had vibrato installed). BTW, none of the models had 24 frets until 1973, and the necks are identical to domestic models. Only slight spec changes to soundhole, case and tailpiece designation.

2.) Contrary to popular belief, Townshend rarely played a 1997 model. He possibly owned up to two of them throughout his career, and certainly not early-on. The earliest 1997 he owned was in late 1965. (http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/rick4.jpg) If you look at all other photos of his guitars, it's typically a three-pickup Rose Morris 1998 model or a Rose Morris 1993 12-string model. He also owned far less Rickenbackers than people imagine. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 total over the course of the three years he initially played Rickenbackers (1964-1967).

3.) Pete's guitars were typically damaged far beyond a simple neck break. Below are images of the extensive damage to both of his known 1997 models:




(same guitar as above, before the beheading. Note the tape behind the body).


I actually own a beat up 1964 Rose Morris 1998 with a broken headstock, and even with all of Pete's 1998s, it's still not one of his. Would be nice though! They sold hundreds of these guitars back in the day, and many were beat up and played a lot. Couple that with the natural fragility of Rickenbackers and it explains the common neck repairs.

[collin]

And for the record, here is the Colin Jones/Observer shot - not a 1997 to be found anywhere on the wall:

[stilt-the-wilt]

Hi Dave, welcome.

Cool guitar, great story, but that's not one of Pete's guitars.

Here's some more info:

1.) Your guitar may be a US-domestic market 330S model. These were the same as a Rose Morris 1997, but with an R-tailpiece or trapeze tailpiece (take your tailpiece off and snap a photo of the screw holes, this might tell you some info). These were sent to US dealers, not exported to Rose Morris. They also had the silver knobs. Yours also does not have a roller bridge, which would have been standard equipment on any Rose Morris model (which all had vibrato installed). BTW, none of the models had 24 frets until 1973, and the necks are identical to domestic models. Only slight spec changes to soundhole, case and tailpiece designation.

2.) Contrary to popular belief, Townshend rarely played a 1997 model. He possibly owned up to two of them throughout his career, and certainly not early-on. The earliest 1997 he owned was in late 1965. (http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/images/rick4.jpg) If you look at all other photos of his guitars, it's typically a three-pickup Rose Morris 1998 model or a Rose Morris 1993 12-string model. He also owned far less Rickenbackers than people imagine. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 total over the course of the three years he initially played Rickenbackers (1964-1967).

3.) Pete's guitars were typically damaged far beyond a simple neck break. Below are images of the extensive damage to both of his known 1997 models:

I actually own a beat up 1964 Rose Morris 1998 with a broken headstock, and even with all of Pete's 1998s, it's still not one of his. Would be nice though! They sold hundreds of these guitars back in the day, and many were beat up and played a lot. Couple that with the natural fragility of Rickenbackers and it explains the common neck repairs.

Hi colin,

You seem far more informed than I am...

I wrote to Rickenbacker some time ago and they didn't respond! The guy (expert) who replaced the pickup for me verified the authenticity of the guitar being a Rose Morris one. He mentioned that the guitar has had extensive work over the years and commented on the narrowness of the neck (being much narrower than the 330's he's played)

He seemed to think that the head might have been broken off at some point but again it's difficult to prove! (under the TRC and underneath the truss rods are laquered Black!)

The problem is knowing what's under the black finish (Although I'm not going to start stripping it!) but if I did it'd probably reveal all sorts of dings, nicks, cracks and old screw holes!?!

I was in Tin Pan Alley (Denmark Street) on Friday and most of the vintage shops there didn't know who I could contact to get hold of anyone who could represent Mr Townshend - I've mailed his brother and various other people, the only response I received was from the who .com who said they had no contact with any of the artists they represent!

I'd have said from the pictures you've very kindly put on your post that the two 1997's are actually the same guitar (Looking at the damage to the control plate?)

Most people have told me that they think it's certainly a matter of opinion and some have commented that even if I was lucky enough to speak to Pete he probably wouldn't know anyway!

But as you say, it's a nice story (I like it!)

Dave

[godber]

You may get lucky if you speak to Alan Rogan, Pete's guitar technician.

[collin]

What else can I say? Good luck on the quest, Dave. You seem pretty determined indeed.


That Who equipment site, plus the various books on The Who are your best friend here, but the evidence is strongly against your case on this guitar, even though it would be cool (and highly lucrative for you).

Unless you strip that guitar back to bare wood and match the wood grain with a known photo of Townshend with a 1997 (which is rare because he hardly owned any), there's really not much there to go by.


p.s. good point about the photos! All three on the bottom are indeed the same guitar. This might even be the same guitar linked above (with the Union Jack jacket), but I would have to dig up the date for that gig to be sure. Maybe only one 1997 total?

[stilt-the-wilt]

14 Oct 1966


http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/new ... /154038894

[k43rover]

I raise you 10....

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/new ... o/85034846

[k43rover]

..and again. All three shots could be of the same guitar given the quoted dates...

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/new ... o/85034773

[k43rover]

I don't think Pete ever played a '66 in this colour... Or maybe he kept this one safely locked up at home....

[k43rover]

BTW Dave, if your guitar has the remnants of this dark red shade of Autumnglo under the black or in the cavity, then there's a clear possibility that it was an official Rose Morris UK export as this colour was offered in 1966 only as an addition to the regular Fireglo shades....