New '81 R.E.M. footage - earliest footage to surface!

[Folkie]

David,

I have a tough question that only someone with your expertise might be able to answer. Why did Peter play so little 12-string onstage over the years? (I've located just four or five YouTube clips of him with 360/12 in hand.) I always assumed that he had trouble keeping his 12-string in tune, or that he found it technically difficult to play cleanly with the string pairs so close together. Do you have any insights into this?

Robert

[Sweden]

David,
I have a tough question that only someone with your expertise might be able to answer. Why did Peter play so little 12-string onstage over the years? (I've located just four or five YouTube clips of him with 360/12 in hand.) I always assumed that he had trouble keeping his 12-string in tune, or that he found it technically difficult to play cleanly with the string pairs so close together. Do you have any insights into this?
Robert

I honestly don't know, but you're right. However, I don't think he even owned one until 1985 or so. Remember that Mitch told us that the intro to So Central Rain was played on a Fender XII. In '85 he seems to have used his Rick 12 on a handful of songs each show. Not really sure how many, if any, songs he used it on '86 and '87 since there's so little footage and the Ibanez chorus makes it a bit difficult to hear on the recordings if it's a 6 or a 12 used. Then I don't think there was any 12 used at all during the Green tour (somebody could correct me on this) and there was no 12 used on the '95 and '99 tours. During the promo shows in 2001 he used the purple sparkle Danelectro 12 for a few songs, but it then disappeared. No 12:er used in 2003 or 2005 I think, but then in 2008 he started using a 620/12 - which has a wider neck (right?), so maybe you are on to something regarding the "difficult to play" aspect.
Maybe someone else can shed some light on this?

[electrofaro]

You have an excellent ear (and eye), David! Some people here have mistaken a few of the songs (like the CCR cover you posted) from this show as 12-string songs, when, in fact, Peter is playing a 6-string Ric through a chorus pedal. The difference between the dry signal and the sound with added chorus is very dramatic. Thanks for pointing that out!
Robert

Yep, I was convinced myself for quite some time that it was a 12 he used, but I think think Werner (or you?) pointed it out in an earlier thread that it was a regular 340 that he played.

Could have been me, although I can't say for sure, although I do own a 340 myself. Memory tells me it was some footage that brought us here on RRF to the conclusion Peter was playing a 340 and got that sound with it.

Thanks for posting the UE-pedal... brings back memories of live gigs... Peter moves up to hit the pedal, puts his foot down, looks down, turns around to Scott and says I missed it. We (crowd) thought it was quite funny

[rkbsound]

So what would be the closest chorus pedals compared to the Ibanez EU series? Any thoughts?

[Kingbreaker]

Related question: is there a definitive list of REM studio recordings with a 12-string? It seems most obvious and prominent on Reckoning to my ears. .. .

[jdawe]

No 12:er used in 2003 or 2005 I think, but then in 2008 he started using a 620/12 - which has a wider neck (right?), so maybe you are on to something regarding the "difficult to play" aspect.

No, the 620 has the same skinny neck as the 330 and 360. You're probably thinking of the 660, which has the same body style but the wider neck. Peter seems to have played both: the 12-string he can be seen playing on the "Collapse Into Now" videos looks like a 620 (it has an R-tailpiece rather than a trapeze, and Hi-Gains rather than toasters), but if you Google "Peter Buck 12-string" the first photo that comes up is one of him playing what looks to be a 660-12 (with trapeze and toasters).

[jdawe]

Related question: is there a definitive list of REM studio recordings with a 12-string? It seems most obvious and prominent on Reckoning to my ears. .. .

IIRC there was a thread on this a while back, but I'm not sure it ever got to the point where it could be called definitive. I will try to locate it.

We do have definitive evidence that the 12-string on Reckoning is actually Mitch Easter's Fender XII. The link below is to a thread in which John Hall got the inside scoop on this from Peter's guitar tech Dewitt Burton, and Mitch himself then confirmed this a few pages later: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=398755

[electrofaro]

Peter used Mitch's Fender XII on Reckoning - Mitch posted a picture of himself with said guitar!

Peter owns a 620/12 afaik which he used quite a bit on 'Collpase into Now'. Not sure about him owning a 660/12 himself.
If I think back of the last decade I have seen him play his 360/12ers at Robyn Hitchcock gigs... that would be live. I can't remember him using any of them at R.E.M. gigs.

[Sweden]

No 12:er used in 2003 or 2005 I think, but then in 2008 he started using a 620/12 - which has a wider neck (right?), so maybe you are on to something regarding the "difficult to play" aspect.

No, the 620 has the same skinny neck as the 330 and 360. You're probably thinking of the 660, which has the same body style but the wider neck. Peter seems to have played both: the 12-string he can be seen playing on the "Collapse Into Now" videos looks like a 620 (it has an R-tailpiece rather than a trapeze, and Hi-Gains rather than toasters), but if you Google "Peter Buck 12-string" the first photo that comes up is one of him playing what looks to be a 660-12 (with trapeze and toasters).

Ah, thanks for clarification. So much for the "difficult to play" theory then. He has played quite a bit of Eastwood Nashville 12 with other bands in the last few years too, and one some occasions Epiphone Riviera 12-strings (even with R.E.M.), for example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6aBOmqxD74

[Sweden]

Peter used Mitch's Fender XII on Reckoning - Mitch posted a picture of himself with said guitar!
Peter owns a 620/12 afaik which he used quite a bit on 'Collpase into Now'. Not sure about him owning a 660/12 himself.
If I think back of the last decade I have seen him play his 360/12ers at Robyn Hitchcock gigs... that would be live. I can't remember him using any of them at R.E.M. gigs.

He also used Epiphone 12:ers with Robyn, for example here in Stockholm in 2007:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... 2611e3bd60

The pictures here shows that the 12-string he used on stage in 2008 (for Supernatural Superserious only, I think) was a 620/12: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4162&start=45
The 360/12 was backup then. I agree that there was no use of a 360/12 on stage since the mid'80's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goF_PFxQ9Hk

[Folkie]

Related question: is there a definitive list of REM studio recordings with a 12-string? It seems most obvious and prominent on Reckoning to my ears. .. .

John,

Here's a brief list of early R.E.M. studio recordings which (to my ear) feature an electric 12 (I won't include songs like"Talk About the Passion," where the 12-string is used just for occasional overdubs.) Also, I don't know the post-I.R.S. albums as well as I do the early stuff (and I haven't noticed any 12-string on "Document") so my list ends with "Lifes Rich Pageant."

Burning Down
Gardening at Night
Carnival of Sorts (Box Cars)
7 Chinese Brothers
Intro to "So. Central Rain"
Pretty Persuasion
Letter Never Sent
Maps and Legends
Life and How to Live it
Green Grow the Rushes
Good Advices
Wendell Gee
I Believe

Robert

[electrofaro]

The pictures here shows that the 12-string he used on stage in 2008 (for Supernatural Superserious only, I think) was a 620/12: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4162&start=45
The 360/12 was backup then. I agree that there was no use of a 360/12 on stage since the mid'80's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goF_PFxQ9Hk

Maybe he wanted to make it easy for us to spot when he's using a 12 er

With touring comes moving from place to place sometimes going from cold and wet to warm and dry within 24 hrs - it might be the 620 just keeps better in tune?

[cestlamort]

So what would be the closest chorus pedals compared to the Ibanez EU series? Any thoughts?

the UE racks are just the 9-series pedals (or extremely close, the early ones seem to be closer to the x0x serious previously), but with more switching options. (And less noise).

An older CS-9 will get you there, as would one from the "L" or "10" series. (Or pick up a UE300 or 305 if you see one). Probably most of the chorus pedals from that era will also do the trick. (Boss CE-2, CE-3, Arion ones, etc).

[Clifton]

My favorite REM stuff is their early stuff--Chronic Town to Fables, I guess. I only have one bootleg--Live At Tyrone's. I like their music best when it sounds more mysterious. Which means, I guess, before they brought Michael's vocals forward in the mix.

[Folkie]

My favorite REM stuff is their early stuff--Chronic Town to Fables, I guess. I only have one bootleg--Live At Tyrone's. I like their music best when it sounds more mysterious. Which means, I guess, before they brought Michael's vocals forward in the mix.

Well, then, we're on exactly the same page. I think the I.R.S. records between "Chronic Town" and "Fables" represent their strongest work. "Lifes Rich Pageant" is the last album of theirs that I really dug. That's not to diminish the impact of "Out of Time" and "Automatic for the People," but "Murmur" and "Fables" willl always be the quintessential R.E.M. records to me.