360/12 tuning issue

[faustus]

Hi folks,

I got a 2000-ish Rickenbacker 360/12; great guitar, but i have a small problem with intonation. I realize the limitations of having two strings per bridgeblock, but it is only a real problem with the G-pair...

So, do i have to get a 12-sadle bridge, or is there some quantum-mechanical trick i can pull here?

/Jimmy

[kiramdear]

What brand of strings are on there now? Some brands intonate better than others with the six-saddle bridge. You might consider a switch to TI.

[faustus]

"EXL150 Nickel Wound, 12-String, Regular Light, 10-46".

D'addario:
PL017 G 0.0170
PL008 G 0.0080

Thomastik Infeld:
SB22 G 0.022
P08G G 0.008

So, are you suggesting .022 instead of .017?

[kiramdear]

This is the set I have used with no intonation problems for six-saddle bridge on my 360/12 CW.

http://www.pickofthericks.com/thomastik ... t-010-044/

[jimk]

It's gotta be your strings. We've seen this over and over again. TI jazz flats, Rickenbacker brand strings, or Curt Mangan strings are the ones that come highly recommended by 12 string players on the forum.
JimK

[faustus]

So, i have three options:

1. Experiment -> fail -> import pricey boutiqe strings
2. Experiment -> fail -> get a 12-saddle bridge
3. Experiment -> succeed -> keep butter on my bread

[Clint]

For the G string pair, try a .020W and a .010 for the octave. Any quality string brand should do. You're not going to get anywhere with an .008.

[iiipopes]

It is definitely the strings.

STRING STRETCH!!!!!

OK, I'll go over what I've posted before: the core of the string is what determines the intonation compensation at the bridge. The larger the diameter of the string, the more compensation needed. That's why most guitar bridges with conventional strings have the offsets they do when set up.

Look at any 6-string guitar correctly intonated with a conventional light gauge set of strings that has a plain G: you will see that the G saddle is way far back compared to the E string or B string. This is what is happening on the OP's guitar, so that if the unison is intonated, the octave is flat; and if the octave is intonated, the unison is sharp, and any attempt to split the difference just makes everything out of tune.

Wound strings, because the windings act like a slinky in this regard, don't require any significantly more intonation compensation than a plain string the same diameter of the wound string.

SO... to get intonation on the G pair, use a wound 3rd G string, which will have a core diameter about the same as the plain octave G string. Same core diameter = same compensation needed = same position for the bridge saddle; hence only one saddle per pair is needed.

[xpitt]

So, i have three options:

1. Experiment -> fail -> import pricey boutiqe strings
2. Experiment -> fail -> get a 12-saddle bridge
3. Experiment -> succeed -> keep butter on my bread

Jimmy, like most RRF members say: the TI flats are best choice, have them on my 6 saddle equipped 360/12, no tuning issues at all. You can get them here, good shop, they ship to Sweden :

http://schneidermusik.de/home/index.php?language=en

They have the TI flats as single items, not as a whole set, so you can put your set together: 10/10;13/13; 20/10; 25/13; 35/20; 44/25
Costs:
2 x Thomastik JS20 Jazz Swing, Nickel Flat Wound 3,98 €
2 x Thomastik JS25 Jazz Swing, Nickel Flat Wound 5,38 €
1 x Thomastik JS35 Jazz Swing, Nickel Flat Wound 3,19 €
1 x Thomastik JS44 Jazz Swing, Nickel Flat Wound 3,79 €
3 x Thomastik INFELD IP10 Plain Steel 1,17 €
3 x Thomastik INFELD IP13 Plain Steel 1,17 €
So the set is € 18,68 including 19 % german VAT tax (Feb 2012). They use to have all strings in stock, but sometimes a wait of two weeks on some strings like the JS44 ore JS35 can happen.
Keep in mind that these string are lasting VERY long, more than compensating the higher price.
Good luck !

[iiipopes]

The D'addario set will work if you purchase a separate wound G string, say an 18, 19, or 20 wound to go with the 8 octave string.

[faustus]

A lot of wisdom and experience here. I got some new ideas...

[iiipopes]

For the G string pair, try a .020W and a .010 for the octave. Any quality string brand should do. You're not going to get anywhere with an .008.

As a matter of fact, I use an 8 for the octave G string. It does very well with the 18w I use as the unison G string on my own custom assembled set from singles of D'Addario XL:

E 9-9; B 11 1/2 11 1/2; G 18w-8; D 24w-10; A 32w-14; E 42w-22w (with the custom-milled offset saddle I made myself).

This can change from time to time a number or two either way for each string, depending on availability and how I feel playing.

[Clint]

It was my understanding that he had it paired with a plain .017.

[iiipopes]

It was my understanding that he had it paired with a plain .017.

Yes. That is what causes the intonation issue that I commented on above first, and which, if the OP wants to keep the D'Addario commercial 12-string set, can be solved with the wound G as I commented on down a couple of posts.

[Clint]

Yeah, a wound G is what I suggested. The W in .020W stands for wound.