Some Fretless Questions

[woodyng]

BTW, my 4000FL BG dates to 1977.

P6254579C.JPG

Gasp!!!!
Oh,my,very nice!!!
If we both make it to another BARC,ya gotta bring that!

[doctorwho]

BTW, my 4000FL BG dates to 1977.

P6254579C.JPG

Gasp!!!!
Oh,my,very nice!!!
If we both make it to another BARC,ya gotta bring that!

I'll make sure that I bring it along!

[8mileshigher]

Woody & Gary

can we pencil you all in as RSVPs on the tenative BARC list, for the yet-to-be-determined time/date/location ?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=408723

[woodyng]

Tenatively only for me i'm afraid it might be a long shot,but i won't rule it out.

[Ashgray]

After reading many comments in this and other forums here, and despite my trepidation in altering crucial components of a vintage instrument, I finally took the plunge and have installed a toaster in the neck position, and a horseshoe in the bridge position of my 1982 4001Fl. Replacing the hi-gain bridge pup with the horseshoe, which has a smaller footprint, revealed some indentations in the finish that were not visible before, where the original pup had been screwed down too far and had bitten into the finish, but hey - it's worth it.

Sound wise - WOW! What a difference! The toaster gives far more warmth and depth to the bass frequencies, whilst the horseshoe gives more bite and character - qualities that I felt were a little missing with the original hi-gain pups. I'll keep safe hold of the original hi-gain pups, just in case the extremely unlikely event of me selling this bass happens, but with that exception, I'll not be changing them back.

My thanks to those who've contributed here and in other sections of this forum to my questions about this - even our drummer noticed the sound improvement!

Given my experience with installing vintage pups and views in other fora, it rather begs the question - why did Rickenbacker see the need to change the design of such wonderful sounds pups, to the extent that owners of some modern basses are swapping their hi-gains for vintage versions? Or do other members prefer the hi-gains' tone?

Just interested..

[woodyng]

A lot of people like the hotter higains,i am sure. Depending on your signal chain,amps,playing style,and any number of other reason,i imagine you can get a great sound out of any RIC pickups. I prefer lower output pickups myself,but that's just me. I do feel it's more the "classic" sound. Glad your experiment turned out to your liking. If i were to get a fl,i would probably install hb1's,with the coil taps,because i really like the sound of them on my 4004's.

[ken_j]

... Replacing the hi-gain bridge pup with the horseshoe, which has a smaller footprint, revealed some indentations in the finish that were not visible before, where the original pup had been screwed down too far and had bitten into the finish, but hey - it's worth it. ...

Why not put the horseshoe pickup in the original surround? This way you will have no finish issues.

[jps]

... Replacing the hi-gain bridge pup with the horseshoe, which has a smaller footprint, revealed some indentations in the finish that were not visible before, where the original pup had been screwed down too far and had bitten into the finish, but hey - it's worth it. ...

Why not put the horseshoe pickup in the original surround? This way you will have no finish issues.

Yeah, like this.

[johnallg]

Given my experience with installing vintage pups and views in other fora, it rather begs the question - why did Rickenbacker see the need to change the design of such wonderful sounds pups, to the extent that owners of some modern basses are swapping their hi-gains for vintage versions? Or do other members prefer the hi-gains' tone?

Just interested..

The original 60s toasters were around 6k ohms in the winding of them; the one you put in is 7.4k ohms. For a while in the 90s, they were 11.4k ohms. The 60s horseshoe pups were around 5.5k to 6.5k ohms and the dhoes were made out of magnetic material and were the only magnetic field. The HS you bought is the reissue 11.4k ohm version and the shoes are plain steel and not magnetic; the poles in the coil are alnico magnet rods and provide the magnetic field. This is a one sided magnetic sensing, whereas the old magnetic shoes provide a 3D magnetic sensing. The pickups you replaced were early version higains and were both wound to about 8.4k ohms. Today's higain pups are wound to 11.4k ohms.

Did you ever bypass the .0047uF capacitor in series with the bridge pickup? shorting that cap out adds full frequency response to the bridge pup and gives it more growl and authority.

[edit] Oh, I love the sound and tone of the 8.4k higain pickups.

[Ashgray]

... Replacing the hi-gain bridge pup with the horseshoe, which has a smaller footprint, revealed some indentations in the finish that were not visible before, where the original pup had been screwed down too far and had bitten into the finish, but hey - it's worth it. ...

Why not put the horseshoe pickup in the original surround? This way you will have no finish issues.

Good idea Ken, don't know why I didn't think of it... Horseshoe is now installed in old pup mounting and finish issues are now no longer visible.

Also, thanks to John A, that's very useful info, and your suggestion re bypassing the bridge pickup capacitor sounds interesting, as a little more "growl" is really all I'm looking for in this instrument now. However, I've never attempted this mod before. I'd be most grateful if someone knowledgeable in this area could please explain what's involved or how to proceed? Is it simply a question of removing the capacitor and bridging the resulting gap with wire?

[jps]

...I'd be most grateful if someone knowledgeable in this area could please explain what's involved or how to proceed? Is it simply a question of removing the capacitor and bridging the resulting gap with wire?

It's much easier than that. Just wrap a piece of wire around the leads of the cap to short the cap out. Once you are happy with the sound add solder to make it a more solid connection. Done.

[johnallg]

...I'd be most grateful if someone knowledgeable in this area could please explain what's involved or how to proceed? Is it simply a question of removing the capacitor and bridging the resulting gap with wire?

It's much easier than that. Just wrap a piece of wire around the leads of the cap to short the cap out. Once you are happy with the sound add solder to make it a more solid connection. Done.

And there you have it.

[Ashgray]

Thanks again for all the advice guys.

As I have all of my basses at home (instead of rehearsal studios) for the first time in years, I thought I'd take the opportunity to get some shots of the new Ricks alongside my existing basses...

(sorry, can't seem to get this shot to display upright when clicking on it)

[cjj]

Nice!

[Ashgray]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but, having lived with the toaster/horsie combination on my 4001 fretless for a few months now, I'd say I'm happy, particularly with the superb feel and playability of the bass, but I'm keen to explore all options in achieving that "magic" fretless sound, which on reflection I'm not quite doing at the moment. I currently have the toaster coupled with the treble hi-gain installed. Ultimately, I'm looking for a really warm, middly, sustained singing tone that I can't quite get at the moment.

The option I've not yet explored is using HB1 or HB2 pups - never tried or heard these, but I understand that both occupy the same "footprint" on a Rick body so modifications to the pickguard wouldn't be needed. Is anyone able to offer a subjective opinion of the sound quality of the HB1 & HB2 pups, compared with the toaster/horsie combination and the hi-gains that were originally on this bass?

Yeah I know - I'm a real fussy bugger when it comes to fretless sound - it always seems so much harder to realise than with a fretted bass.

Ash