New Horseshoes!!!!

cheyenne · Post by **cheyenne** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:01 pm

Ted, dont get me wrong, I agree. If I want to paint my Blueboy pink, I will.

I just wonder what would have happened if Seymore Duncan would have designed "Direct Horseshoe Replacements", when he introduced his RIC replacements.

Im willing to bet most people are looking for the horseshoe look, more so than the tone.

Seymore Duncan seems to be "Shunned" by the forum, but the "new guy" Jason Lollar seems to be OK. Whats up with that?

Sound or Look?

Not trying to start anything here, just curious.

jpoprock · Post by **jpoprock** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:25 pm

Mr. Vice,

Being that I'm but a RIC p-ion who hasn't even recieved the bass that YOU talked me into to buying.... I was wondering... why can't you just put a regular old 4003 PU in it? Does RIC make those?

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:40 pm

I'm sorry Scott, I did not intend any offense and I certainly don't want to start anything either. That previous episode about horseshoe pickups was regrettable and I don't want to go into that again. I got a few personal messages from JH back then and while I don't pretened to understand all of the complex issues, it seemed that he was telling me that RIC has trademarked the terms Toaster Top and Horseshoe as they pertain to guitar pickups. It is not clear to me whether the trademark includes the physical appearance of the pickps or just the names. The Trademark Office shows the gumby and cresting wave headstocks as registered trademarks so it is possible that the look of the pickups could be trademarked. It is VERY difficult to look anything up on the US Patent Office website. The searches are far from complete or authoritative. That is why there are patent lawyers.

I think the shunning of Semour Duncan is more or less player preference and not political statement. A lot of Rick players feel that Duncans do not improve the sound of Rick basses. There is noting wrong with (nor should there be) Duncan producing replacement pickups for any instrument.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:49 pm

Scott ...

the forum attitude is for the most part retro ... so they like Lollar pickups because they are retro ... but the duncans are ugly and lack growl ...

Jason ...

you can get 4003 pickups from Mike Parks and some of the other Ric dealers ... Ric used to sell the reissue horseshoe pickup ... but for some reason they stopped ...

I prefer the new 4003 pickups to other ric pickups ... the old 60's horseshoe is a pretty pickup but it was weak sounding ... the steel shoes did not hold a magnetic charge very well ... iron makes for better magnets when trace metals are added ... that's why the reissue horseshoe pickups have alinco slugs instead of magnetized horseshoes ...

cheyenne · Post by **cheyenne** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:01 pm

No offense at all Ted, I didnt mean to come off so arrogant with my reply.

Apologies all around.

cheyenne · Post by **cheyenne** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:06 pm

Yeah, I agree Jeff, I prefer the modern 4003 pickups myself. I guess thats why I cant understand the big deal with the horseshoes.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:04 pm

To me, it is not just a look. Genuine horseshoe pickups produce a different sound from the modern pickups. The shape of the magnetic field is very different from that of the under-string magnets. It is hard to quantify but the tone is more nasal and has a different presence. Squire's early 70's tone relies heavily on the tone of the horseshoe. Jeff Rath is right when he says it is thinner sounding and weak. I am not a retro player but I like the tone of the horseshoe pickups for some types of playing. I am not about to convert all of my basses but having one or two vintage horseshoes on hand adds some colors to my tonal pallet. The reissue horseshoes are great and I really like the one in my V63 but it simply does not sound like the old ones.

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:20 pm

My modified 3000 bass(the one that looks like a fireglo 610 guitar) has a V63 Horseshoe in it only. The sound is incredible through my Ampeg B4R but then I've never heard a modern 4003 bridge pickup by itself. I use RIC humbuckers in my modified 5-string and fretless 3000's mounted to 4003 bridge pickup trim rings and covers(mainly for heighth adjustability and a place to rest my hand...and cool looks)which sound very resonant on the fretless with flats and very full and punchy with rounds on the five string. Has anyone ever used this pickup on a RIC bass or guitar with a coil tap switch and if so, how did it sound? Pics of these basses can be found toward the end of the "Pictures of Your Rickenbacker Bass" thread in the archives posted for me by Jeff Rath.

marc61 · Post by **marc61** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:10 am

Dane, Love what you did to the 3000. My next project if I ever get around to it will be a 4000 with a horseshoe job. I never played a 3000, maybe that would be more fun.

bottom4 · Post by **bottom4** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:45 am

Interestingly, VP is not shown as an option on the RIC website. There is: LH, RH, VB, VH & UP. Wonder if that’s an oversight or you can no longer “upgrade” your guitar with a toaster?

Regarding horseshoes - I love the sound and the look. Wanting to put one in my 4003 to go with the toaster I have in there and the vintage knobs. My choices are to either go to JL and get one, which RIC doesn't want to happen and I'd prefer not to, go out and buy an old electric steel so that at least it is an authentic RIC part and RIC doesn't like that, buy one that is over priced on the bay – which I don’t like, or just simply wait for RIC to release them. I certainly hope I won't need to replace the one in my V63 any time soon. Then I don't know what I'd do!

dave4004 · Post by **dave4004** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:58 am

The VP is still shown on the price list under special order options. Some dealers regularly order some of their stock guitars that way (e.g. Willie's American Guitars and Dave's Guitar Shop). But on a bass, the VP means having a toaster at the neck. AFAIK that VP option has never included the horseshoe. You used to be able to buy it separately, but that was before they needed the production for the C series.

I strongly prefer stock hi-gains to the horseshoe (old or reissue) and the toaster. Of course, I haven't heard the Lollar pickup so I'll reserve judgment, but if it's designed to sound like the old ones, I won't like it as much as a hi-gain either.

I believe the trademark issues are these: (1) the name toaster or toaster top is trademarked, and so is the appearance of the pickup cover, which is distinct and accounts for the name. The functional pickup is not trademarkable, and if it was ever patentable, it's long expired. (2) The name horseshoe is trademarked, but the appearance is not, since the look is strictly the result of its functional shape. The function was patented, but that's long expired.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:49 am

Dave: That is my suspicion. The toaster look is purely style where the look of the horseshoe is function.

baltimucho · Post by **baltimucho** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:55 am

I'm all about the look AND sound. If the pickup is a little week for output, I'll turn up the amp. Although I'd rather have the NEW reissue vintage horseshoe, I'll do what it takes to get anything that gets me the look and sound I want.

Funny thing is, most people find Ric-O-Sound usless; even to the point of rewiring to bypass it completely, but RIC continues to to provide it in all their instruments. It's obvious that RIC loves what they've brought to the musical instrument arena. So, why not make it ALL available?

Others (like myself) find everything about RIC "heritage" vital to our groove, yet some of those parts are no longer offered from RIC on an "accessory" basis. It feels like the attitude, "If you want that groove... Buy the guitar. We don't want you changing your current guitar into something it's not."

jnbass · Post by **jnbass** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:11 am

me. I'm just crass.

I like the LOOK of the horseshoe, but it gets in the way when I play (when I do play 'em Jaymi).

Never had a truly vintage HS to compare to the V63 and C64 p'ups that I have. I do like the modern hi-gains vs some of the late 60's p'ups.

Thus...

make 'em look like horseshoes...