4003 versus 4004

[aceonbass]

While the positive attributes mentioned earlier about the 4004 are pretty much true, the biggest reason for the darker sound in the 4004 series is the use of the wrong value pots and tone cap in them. RIC's a big enough manufacturer that they could get the 1000 ct minimum order with CTS in 250K & 500K values, but instead they put 330K pots in everything. I guess that's better than all of the 180K pots they were putting in everything before the 330K's came out, but it doesn't do any favors for anything with HB1's in it. Just ask Sepp, or anyone who's ever sold a newly acquired 4004. The .047uf chicklet tone cap is the other half of the problem.

[Martthebass]

Got to admit, while I love the sounds available from the 4004, I didnt understand why it's fundamentally a little dark on the neck and both pickup positions. It's nothing that can't be dialled out with a little eq but as a long time Stingray player I assumed the tone difference was down to active vs non-active.

I've had mine a few weeks now and the jury's still out for me on whether it's a 'keeper'. I prefer it over the 4003 for its contoured lightweight body, 'proper' bridge and lack of metalwork accoutrements (as I play finger style) but I would like to be able to dial in more bite like on a 4003 (or my Ray or Status) without dashing for the amp eq.

I'm aware there are some fairly straightforward mods which address this but, here in the uk where can I find the hardware, also I'm hesitant about invalidating the warranty at this stage.

[cassius987]

While the positive attributes mentioned earlier about the 4004 are pretty much true, the biggest reason for the darker sound in the 4004 series is the use of the wrong value pots and tone cap in them. RIC's a big enough manufacturer that they could get the 1000 ct minimum order with CTS in 250K & 500K values, but instead they put 330K pots in everything. I guess that's better than all of the 180K pots they were putting in everything before the 330K's came out, but it doesn't do any favors for anything with HB1's in it. Just ask Sepp, or anyone who's ever sold a newly acquired 4004. The .047uf chicklet tone cap is the other half of the problem.

I like the sound with the stock harness (never mind the functionality of it). In a 4003 harness with two pots in parallel for V and T, I agree, it would be way too dark.

[woodyng]

But that's what is in my Laredo,pretty much,and it sounds great. 2 vol,2 tone,1 pu selector. Dane used the pots in the values he mentioned,and it is very open sounding. And after i had the VVT mod done to my Cii,again,with the higher value pots,it brightened up the sound considerably without losing any of the bass tone. It is a relatively easy mod,and imo,so much better sounding and more versatile than stock. And In the case of the VVT,completely reversable.

[cassius987]

But that's what is in my Laredo,pretty much,and it sounds great. 2 vol,2 tone,1 pu selector. Dane used the pots in the values he mentioned,and it is very open sounding. And after i had the VVT mod done to my Cii,again,with the higher value pots,it brightened up the sound considerably without losing any of the bass tone. It is a relatively easy mod,and imo,so much better sounding and more versatile than stock. And In the case of the VVT,completely reversable.

Right, that's the point, Dane's values are different than stock values for the pots and caps. So what's in your 4004 is not what's in a 4003. However the values used in a 4003 are fine for a 4004 (I think) when the harness is simpler (and loads down less).

[aceonbass]

The Laredo Woody's talking about is the one I modified to look like a '57 4000 with the HB1's in the stock 4002 positions. The wiring is the same as a 4001S, but with pots and tone caps appropriate to humbucking pickups. The stock component values are not optimal for 4004's with humbucking pickups, and I believe, based on my own experiences and what other 4004 owners have told me, that this is the primary reason that 4004's are described as "darker" sounding than 4003's. I don't know of any other manufacturer that uses 330K pots in anything, or .047uF tone caps in wiring circuits with humbucking pickups. Now if a stock 4004 is the only bass someone owns, I'm sure they can get it to sound good with their amp, but plug a 4003 into that amp and it doesn't sound as good, or vice-versa.

[woodyng]

But that's what is in my Laredo,pretty much,and it sounds great. 2 vol,2 tone,1 pu selector. Dane used the pots in the values he mentioned,and it is very open sounding. And after i had the VVT mod done to my Cii,again,with the higher value pots,it brightened up the sound considerably without losing any of the bass tone. It is a relatively easy mod,and imo,so much better sounding and more versatile than stock. And In the case of the VVT,completely reversable.

Right, that's the point, Dane's values are different than stock values for the pots and caps. So what's in your 4004 is not what's in a 4003. However the values used in a 4003 are fine for a 4004 (I think) when the harness is simpler (and loads down less).

Ok,i see what you meant now,Joshua. But the 4004 wiring setup that comes stock,is also imo,just a bit limiting. I will admit to liking the "jazz bass" config best,but the 4001 (vvtts) type set up is real versatile,too. When i got my Laredo,i noticed the Cii seemed to sound dull in comparison,and there are a lot of opinions that the sandwich construction of the cii has a bit to do with that. But once i got the new pots in the cii,it sounds a lot more like a traditional sort of RIC,with lots of bass and treble coming through. I don't know if i feel like i will ever buy another 4004,cause i like mine and i don't need 20 of them,but the first thing i would do would be to replace the pots,etc..

[cassius987]

I think you're misreading me. I'm not vouching for one harness being better than another, just saying I think the sound with the stock harness, which has a final signal load of 330k instead of 165k like VVT(T) setup with pots of the same value would, is perfectly fine and not overly dark. Slap HB-1s in a factory 4003 harness with the aforementioned load (which is something I have done) and the HB-1s live up to their very dark reputation. Playing with the final load, obviously, fixes these issues for a number of control layouts. EDIT: For example, if Dane used all 500K pots for volume in your harness (I'm still not clear on this), the final load is 250K, which is higher than the 165K it would be with 330K pots. This 250K final load is still darker than the 330K of a 4004 harness, assuming in each case that the pots are 100% of the stated value... which they rarely are.

Ironically I have only ever played Ciis. I really don't think they're all that dark (again... with the stock harness which has a higher final load than a 4003 harness). If a Laredo really is that much brighter (I'm skeptical of this), I would definitely think no changes would be needed (on a sound-wise basis, i.e. not counting if you want a different control layout) to make it useable.

One thing that hasn't been said yet unless I missed it is that you can also just run the HB-1s as single coils or parallel humbuckers and escape all of these loading issues as well (my '90s HB-1s are 7K/coil, basically the same as a Toaster). However, the series sound is great in a mix and I would miss it if it weren't switchable.

EDIT 2: After reading a couple more times over the postings, I get the impression a some people might think I'm arguing from a position against what Dane did for Woody's bass. Let me be clear: I'm just shooting the breeze about bass electronics and my own impression of the 4004s I have played, which are about half a dozen... no need to take my opinions as a personal affront on your custom bass or your ideas about what's good and bad in a wiring harness.

[marcinkus]

I agree with Joshua... my '08 4004CII is not dark at all. The HB pickups deliver a lot of mid tones, and I found that I like to cut some frequencies (250 Hz) to get a more focused sound. My old walnut 4004C had less treble, but I think it was due to the stock 250k pots. Newer cheyennes use 330s. BTW I usually use only the bridge pickup!

[woodyng]

No worries,Joshua,i didn't think you were attacking me in any way. I guess in my non technical way of thinking that i just notice that the new pots and wiring in my basses make a NOTABLE difference in the sound and versatility over stock configuration. I plug in my 4000,it sounds great,i plug in either of my 4004's,and without having to radically alter the amp tone controls,they still sound great. I remember when i first got my cii,i would have to really change the tone controls when i went from the 4000 to the Cii. Of course,my 2 4004's are gonna sound different than stock because of their altered pickup positions,too! (Another reason i love them and am hanging onto them). Cheers!

[cassius987]

Remember Dane also changed the cap values (22 nF maybe, as opposed to 47? just a guess) and that will make a very big difference in the sound too. I bet a ToneStyler would be cool in a 4004 for this reason. It's also possible your basses were made with less than 330K pots as RIC is known to sometimes play around with their specs while keeping mum about it. And finally, the two Greatest Truths of Guitar Tone: all wood is different and what may be right for you may not be right for some...

My philosophy is if you are happy with your guitar, you can't take flak about it from anybody. It doesn't get any better than loving the one you're with. I've done so many weird things to some of my instruments by now I can't even keep track of all of them, but I did them for me, not anyone else. So keep enjoying your 4004.

[aceonbass]

All of the pots in Woody's custom 4004L are 500K, while the tone caps are .022uf. The push-pull pots and standard pot in his 4004Cii are also 500K, and I think I also used a .022uF cap there too. While I spec all of my components out with a multi-meter before building a harness, I don't have one in my brain. Meaning that I don't know what loading is what. I only know that what I think are the proper value components (supported by those I've learned from and my ears) get me and my customers the results they were looking for. While the pots RIC now uses are pretty close to the rated spec (which is still not optimal in my opinion) the pots I was paying good money for (actually over paying) several years ago from them were so far out of spec as to be laughable. At the time I wasn't dong my own wiring, and as giving the stuff to others to do, so I didn't know what I was really doing except trusting that they were the right parts for my Ricks. As it turns out, at $10.00 a pot, I was wasting a lot of money on WAY under spec 250K pots (closer to 180K) when I could have spent a lot less on better stuff. So ya live and learn. All of the stuff I build grew out of a desire to have something the way I wanted it, and now I pass on some of what I've learned (gotta hold back a little) and do the same thing for my customers who have the same goals in mind that I do. That HB1's sound dark with a stock 4003 harness is exactly what I would expect. If that's what you like then that's fine. The people I deal with want more clarity out of guitars and basses with these pickups, and that's why I do things the way I do them. I hate seeing someone sell a perfectly good Rick because the stock electronics are lacking, but that's exactly what happens sometimes, and what I've managed to prevent in more than a few instances.

[cassius987]

While I spec all of my components out with a multi-meter before building a harness, I don't have one in my brain. Meaning that I don't know what loading is what. I only know that what I think are the proper value components (supported by those I've learned from and my ears) get me and my customers the results they were looking for.

It's really easy but it sounds weird. Per Ohm's law, because these controls are in parallel, it's the reciprocal of the sum of the reciprocals. So two 500K pots for volume, for example, gives you 250K final load. One 500K pot would simply be 500K. Two 250K gives you 125K. A 250K and a 500K would give you 167K. Etc.

That HB1's sound dark with a stock 4003 harness is exactly what I would expect. If that's what you like then that's fine. The people I deal with want more clarity out of guitars and basses with these pickups, and that's why I do things the way I do them.

I only know of a few people who say they are happy with that setup. I'm certainly not one of them. But if I got a 4004, I might leave it the way it is as in that case the final load is just fine (and I think I'd be okay with the way the controls are setup--obviously if that proved wrong I'd have to do something else). Although as you alluded to earlier, my ears are what drew me to this conclusion, not seeing the value on paper.

I once made a minimum load circuit, which is basically the brightest thing you can make that is still passive, and I hated it compared to the stock harness. This was with Toasters, which don't have as much issues with loading down as HB-1s anyway. The thing I learned from this is that everything has an optimum impedance environment that will be tonally pleasing, and it's possible to go too far both ways (dark or bright).

I feel the need to reiterate again that I am not criticizing you or your methods.

[johnhall]

While the pots RIC now uses are pretty close to the rated spec (which is still not optimal in my opinion) the pots I was paying good money for (actually over paying) several years ago from them were so far out of spec as to be laughable. At the time I wasn't dong my own wiring, and as giving the stuff to others to do, so I didn't know what I was really doing except trusting that they were the right parts for my Ricks. As it turns out, at $10.00 a pot, I was wasting a lot of money on WAY under spec 250K pots (closer to 180K) when I could have spent a lot less on better stuff.

I don't know about the resistance variation you mention (though I suspect you were using a non-zeroed plain ohm meter rather than a quality LCR meter) but one thing is for sure . . . you can't get a pot with the taper we use, combined with a machined brass bushing, anywhere else.

If you don't care about the taper and like die-cast zinc bushings, more power to you.

In any case, REALLY good pots will cost you in the general range of $40 each.

[aceonbass]

The variation in resistance was measured on my Radio Shack multi-meter. I don't know how good it is compared to what the best stuff is, but it was around $80.00. All the pots I tested were your old part number 07431, and spec'd out between 165K-195K. The same meter gets me measurements that are much closer to the rated specs of your current 330K pot part number 07343. The CTS pots I'm currently using that are rated 250k & 500K are usually within 10% of spec. When I build a harness, I match each of the pairs within a harness, so they aren't just whatever I pull out of the drawer. I should probably email Craig at CTS and get their production part number for the pots I use. Decoding that number will tell me all of the details about the pots, including their taper. While I'm sure this would be useful to know, I feel ultimately that the final ohms rating on the pot is more important. While these ratings don't seem as important on something with single coils, say a 4003, they are crucial in making a 4004 sound good to my ears, and apparently several others. I originally got into the 4004 via this forum, but was very disappointed in the dull tone my first one had, leading me to to a "4001S" conversion on it, and swapping out the pickups for unbuttoned guitar hi-gains. Then the bass sounded like what I felt a Rick should sound like. Subsequent 4004's showed it wasn't the pickups, it was the electronics that made for the much darker sound than I was used to in a Rick. The component values I've chosen, and the wiring schemes I use (thanks Joey!) allow me to have the best of both worlds when using HB1's.