4004 sounds like a jazz bass ??????????? Or not???

[vulcan_creedler]

There's a 4004 on t'bay, in the UK at the moment, where the vendor claims it sounds more like a jazz bass than a Ric 4003. Whilst I agree, that a 4004 doesn't sound like a 4003 (unless you coil tap the HB1s - even then - it's more like a 4001), its a lot closer to a 4003 than a jazz!! My JB is a lot darker than my 4004, which is really punchy, like somebody else said here: "Like a 4003 on steroids"

Looking at the register, it appears to be Y14698, and either it's been sold on or the seller has moved, as it's being sold from Birmingham, which is 100 miles from the registration location of Surrey. (A mere stroll in USA terms, but half a country in UK terms!)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rickenbacker- ... 2332a0ef03

Looks like a nice 1998 version.

[woodyng]

I think they sound much more like a thunderbird bass,myself,if i were to compare. The models that have the "dropped" pickup positions come a bit closer to getting that Jaco jazz bass bridge pickup burp,and the 4002 really got it. My laredo,which has the pickups moved to the 4002 positions,and has coil taps,can get that kind of sound easily.

[cassius987]

To me a stock 4004 sounds far more like a 4003 than any Jazz Bass. The tonal character is a bit warmer and smoother, but overall it's clearly still a Ric. As far as dead stock 4004s go I have played around half a dozen to come to that conclusion.

Now, the 4004s with 4002 (Jazz Bass) pickup spacing are a totally different story as they do enter an interesting tonal "middle ground" between a Ric and a Jazz. And if I'm not mistaken the pushed forward pickup positions of 4004s in 2004 (and other years?) had a bridge pickup in Jazz spacing, so one pickup would be that way, possibly.

[edski]

I have a 2004 Laredo, a 75 4001, and a J bass. They all sound different to me. The two Ricks overlap in tone a bit (especially since I put concentrics in the Laredo to get VT/VT control on each PU). I don't think that the Ricks get the nasally "honk" that the J bass does.

[woodyng]

Now, the 4004s with 4002 (Jazz Bass) pickup spacing are a totally different story as they do enter an interesting tonal "middle ground" between a Ric and a Jazz. And if I'm not mistaken the pushed forward pickup positions of 4004s in 2004 (and other years?) had a bridge pickup in Jazz spacing, so one pickup would be that way, possibly.

Actually,if the 4002 pickup spacing can be considered as J bass positions,the 4004's produced with the dropped positions are still closer to traditional RIC spacing than they are to a Fender Jazz. And the bridge pickup is not quite as far back. On my basses,which both have the ABM bridges,the edge of the (dropped) Cii's bridge pickup surround is 1 3/4" from the edge of the bridge. On the custom Laredo,it is 1 1/16". The difference in the neck pickup positions is even greater. Measuring from the edge of the fretboard to the edge of the pickup surround the Cii is 1 1/16",the Laredo is 3 1/2"! ( kind of hard to even call the forward pickup a "neck" pickup on the 4002 spacing). But overall,having those pickups further back brings out some very cool different tonal characteristics of the Rick sound.
I am curious about the spacing your Laredo wound up with.

[edski]

Here are some PU measurements I made recently while figuring out the specs for my (still in progress) custom build. The bridge PU of the Laredo is close to the J dimensions in terms of percentage of the scale length, but the neck PU for my 2004 Laredo is nowhere near the location of the NPU on the J. Closest that I have to the J is my Ibanez, and it really doesn't sound that similar to the J.

Ibanez ~2001 GSR-200 P/J 34" scale
Bridge PU 2 1/2" from Bridge (7.4%)
Neck PU 5 1/2" from Bridge (16.2%)

string spacing
At Nut 7/16"
At Bridge 3/4"

2004 Rick 4004 Laredo 33 1/4" Scale
Bridge PU 3" from Bridge (9.0%)
Neck PU 8" from Bridge (24.0%)

string spacing
At Nut 7/16"
At Bridge variable, nominal 3/4"

Unknown Year 6 String Ibanez SDGR 34"
Bridge PU 1 3/8" from Bridge (4.0%)
Neck PU 4 1/2" from Bridge (13.2%)

string spacing
At Nut 3/8"
At Bridge 11/16"

1975 Rick 4001 33.25" scale
Bridge PU 4 1/4" (12.8%)
Neck PU 8 7/8" (26.7%)

string spacing
At Nut 7/16"
At Bridge 23/32"

1992 Fender Jazz Bass 34" scale
Bridge PU 2 1/2" (7.4%)
Neck PU 6" (17.6%)

string spacing
At Nut 3/8"
At Bridge 3/4""

[cassius987]

I don't think that the Ricks get the nasally "honk" that the J bass does.

+1. Almost never.

Actually,if the 4002 pickup spacing can be considered as J bass positions,the 4004's produced with the dropped positions ... the bridge pickup is not quite as far back. ...
I am curious about the spacing your Laredo wound up with.

I guess that settles it--I really had no idea, but based on pictures it seemed to be pushed forward into "Jazz territory" in the bridge position. Your measurements (and Ed's) back your point up greatly.

My 4004's pickups are supposed to be right on the spots you'd put a Jazz pickup and that's pretty much how they sound, but I'll have to do some measurements to make sure. There's a cool "Ric-Jazz" hybrid sound they have that would make you question how accurate the spacing is, but that's also how I felt about Scott Pope's 4002 and we measure it as pretty dead-on for a P-J spacing (which is fairly similar to JJ). The neck pickup on my 4004 is dead ringer for a Jazz neck pickup with a little more girth. If anything I'd say the bridge pickup might be a little warmer.

FWIW I usually measure my pickup positions opposite from you guys, as a % of scale length in distance away from the nut (instead of from the bridge). I put a Ric bridge pickup around 88% scale length and a Jazz Bridge around 92% based on some rough measurements. I'll have to see where my 4004's pickups fall.

[edski]

FWIW I usually measure my pickup positions opposite from you guys, as a % of scale length in distance away from the nut (instead of from the bridge). I put a Ric bridge pickup around 88% scale length and a Jazz Bridge around 92% based on some rough measurements. I'll have to see where my 4004's pickups fall.

I was measuring it that way (or actually from the 12th fret, but that's really just adding 1/2 the scale length) but the luthier I'm working with does it the other way...so my measurements took on his conventions.

Personally I think it's more accurate going from the nut, but it's not like we're designing a nuclear reactor or anything.

The luthier is really a physicist, so we designed a numerical model to give suggestions of the best placement of the PU's for picking up harmonics. The model suggested that the "best" locations were between 1.5" to 2.25" away from the bridge for the BPU, and between 5.5" to 6" for the NPU. I decided to go with 1.75"/5.75" for my build, which is really close to the 70's J-Bass spec, AFAIK.

[cassius987]

the "best" locations

What was the way you determined a location better than another? Just wondering... that sounds like an interesting process.

[edski]

What was the way you determined a location better than another? Just wondering... that sounds like an interesting process.

It was basically calculating the amplitude of the first 5 harmonics up to the 12th fret, and looking at where the peaks added up. For the bridge PU we dropped out the 1st 2 harmonics, figuring that the bridge PU captures more higher harmonics. Since the results matched up with experience (that is, the suggested locations were not silly) I took the suggestions.

We built in some features to the spreadsheet to remove harmonics and/or calculate if there would be any effect of playing in mainly sharp or flat keys, and the results would shift a quarter inch or so for each iteration. So the model seemed stable. My buddy is thinking of making a guitar with the pickups on rails to do some actual measurements, but that build better be after mine!

IIRC, the Gibson Grabber had a PU you could slide forward or back an inch or two.

[cassius987]

I measured my 4004 for fun and it looks like it's dead ringer for a 70s Jazz. The neck pickup is at 81% of the scale length and the bridge pickup is at 93% (I recorded a normal Jazz bridge pickup at 92% previously).

I will say, the Jazz neck position is one of the best sounds I can think of for any bass.

[vulcan_creedler]

I will say, the Jazz neck position is one of the best sounds I can think of for any bass.

Especially with an HB1 at full throttle

[vulcan_creedler]

On my basses,which both have the ABM bridges,the edge of the (dropped) Cii's bridge pickup surround is 1 3/4" from the edge of the bridge. On the custom Laredo,it is 1 1/16".

Slight change of topic. Do you notice any drop-off in E-string volume with the lower positioned bridge pickup. With my ABM bridge, even with the rollers adjusted to get string spacing as small as possible, the E and G strings are almost at the edge of the pickup (viewed from above, on the chrome/black-plastic join). For me it is more noticeable with the E string rather than the G. I suppose there's the possibility that my Ashdown rig could be causing it rather than the actual bass (.....time to get a new rig.......any excuse will do!)

Joking aside, does the current Schaller bridge offer a closer spacing than the ABM?

Other than that, I rather like the ABM bridge.

[cheyenne]

I put Hipshot style-A bridges on my 4004's. No mods needed, a great bridge.

[jps]

I put Hipshot style-A bridges on my 4004's. No mods needed, a great bridge.

The no mods comment only applies to basses with the ABM bridge; new holes would have to be drilled for a Hipshot bridge when replacing a Schaller bridge. No big deal as the holes are all under the bridge.