Luthier says: "RIC bass necks can't be flat"

[DriftSpace]

We've all heard this before...

I took my 1990 4003 to the Colfax Guitar Shop in Denver to have a new nut made (previous nut was installed too low, and the slots were too deep) and to have (what I thought was going to be) minor fretwork. I specified that I wanted the neck completely flat, and that I wanted the action to be even across the entire fret-board, set-up as low as possible.

After a couple of weeks in the shop (it was around Christmas) I got the call that it was finished. When I picked it up I was told:

"These can't have totally flat necks; either there is a hump in the middle, or humps at the nut and top of the board because that's just how their truss rods work." I was also told that the frets -- after the extensive (and expensive) fret-leveling job -- could not be "perfectly level" because of the frets are so low already, and because of all the lacquer on the fret-board.

Long story short: the E buzzes like nobody's business, but the A, D & G are quiet; none of the fret noise comes through the amplifier, so at least there's that, but the E string sounds less resonant than it used to, and I'm pretty sure it's because energy is being absorbed in the fret buzzing. I'm guessing this is from some shoddy fret work in the E-string area.

I've had two people work on this thing in the last year, and I am about at wit's end; one was supposedly the guy for RIC work, but I'm still sorting things out on that end. I've tried to adjust the truss to banish the relief, but it went back to having the same problem I had before it went to the shop in the first place: buzzing at the low frets.

I've read Joey's extremely helpful website, but feel like whatever is happening is beyond my ability to fix given the tools presently available to me.

Is it unreasonable to want the action on a RIC bass to measure the same at the 20th fret as the 1st fret? Isn't that what the factory specifies?

I plan to take it back to Colfax to have him fix the E buzz, but I'm afraid he'll say the frets need to be replaced, or the board needs leveling, or whatever else, and that he "can't" do a zero-relief neck for whatever reason.

Are there any totally reliable RIC technicians in the states? I'm considering sending it to Mike Lull for a PLEK job ... but I'm starting to feel like this instrument is a fruitless money pit. I know Larry Cragg preaches the gospel of "no neck relief," but who knows how much a set-up from him would cost...

[Colonel Sanders]

I do not think you can expect the same action between the 1st and 20th fret. Unless you cut the nut very high.

As far as the neck relief, you should probably not take "flat" to literally. Because of the small amount of neck lift found on most Rickenbacker basses, you can expect to have a very small amount of neck relief (measured between the first and last fret).

Buzzing at the low frets, more often than not, mean you have a backbow in the neck. Just check if you have any relief between the 1st and 12th fret. If not, adjust the rods so you have a just a hair of it.

[s4001]

You can adjust the neck as you wish. Look at Joey's site for more info. But the best method is really to research and slowly tinker with your basses until you're the best person to set it up. Set ups are a subjective thing. You're the most likely tech to get the setup you like best. Remember, when adjusting rods, don't do more than 1/4 turns initially when you're doing your setups. I've found that a good setup can take a few days as the neck acclimates to the adjustments.

Hopefully the tech you took your bass to didn't mess up your fret leveling. I'm sure you've seen some of the vociferous threads on the net about supposed Ric QC, but notice that none of them are about fret finishing.

[MikeZito]

I keep my neck as flat as possible, (strictly eying the neck), and I keep the action very low. The only problem I have ever had was with one bass where the frets were a bit high on only two notes (A# on E-string, and C# on G-string). Once the frets were leveled, it played great.

[s4001]

Also, I don't know if Joey touches on this, but cutting down the nut slots can have a tremendous effect on the feel of the bass. Most production basses have the nuts slotted very high.

[DriftSpace]

You can adjust the neck as you wish. Look at Joey's site for more info. But the best method is really to research and slowly tinker with your basses until you're the best person to set it up.

Thank you; this is definitely the ultimate goal.

Hopefully the tech you took your bass to didn't mess up your fret leveling. I'm sure you've seen some of the vociferous threads on the net about supposed Ric QC, but notice that none of them are about fret finishing.

The frets had been replaced in June, so whatever the issue was: it was not representative of RIC's quality-control. Colfax Guitar Shop is supposedly one of the (if not the absolute) best place in Colorado for guitar work, and they did a stellar job on my Telecaster not long ago, so I'm sure whatever the problem: they'll make it right.

[coolingitdown]

I do not think you can expect the same action between the 1st and 20th fret.

This. The reason Ricks can have a flat neck is because the neck has a slight upward angle off of the body. The nut, the bridge saddles, and the 20th fret all form a very shallow triangle with the hypotenuse between the nut and the bridge. This makes the string height increase as you go up the neck, allowing for more room for string excursion where it is needed most: in the middle of the strings' speaking length. It's a brilliant design for achieving low action.

I second what Scott said. I have saved a ton of money and aggravation since learning to do my own tech work. I view problems with my instruments as learning opportunities now.

[collin]

Mark Arnquist is the best Rick tech I know of for stuff like this, fine-tuning playability etc. He's in Seattle.

[rickenbrother]

Also, I don't know if Joey touches on this, but cutting down the nut slots can have a tremendous effect on the feel of the bass.

I never did. I think about the people who might be beginners to working on guitars, getting a bit over zealous when it comes to things like filing the nut slots. There are many things I'd like to still get to add to the site, but I either don't have the time or thin maybe it's best not to, as in nut slot filing.

I have saved a ton of money and aggravation since learning to do my own tech work. I view problems with my instruments as learning opportunities now.

After playing Jonathan's Rickenbacker 4003 and 4001C64 on several occasions, all I can say to him about his setups is, you have learned VERY well, Grasshopper!

[jps]

I do not think you can expect the same action between the 1st and 20th fret. Unless you cut the nut very high.

This is what Anthony Jackson does to provide a level playing field on his Fodera, so to speak.

[Colonel Sanders]

I do not think you can expect the same action between the 1st and 20th fret. Unless you cut the nut very high.

This is what Anthony Jackson does to provide a level playing field on his Fodera, so to speak.

He must be one of the very few people to have such a set up!

Assuming a 1.5-2 mm high action, the effort must be considerable to press down the first frets (especially the first one).

Looking at what I get on most of my Rickenbackers is about 0.6 mm at the first fret and 1.5 mm at the 12th fret.

[jps]

Anthony discussed his setup procedure in an issue of Bass Player several years ago.

[ilan]

I do not think you can expect the same action between the 1st and 20th fret. Unless you cut the nut very high.

This is what Anthony Jackson does to provide a level playing field on his Fodera, so to speak.

Cutting the nut too high will make the notes in the 1st and 2nd frets go sharp.

Wood is not exact science. I have 2 Rics with absolutely flat boards that can be set up to ridiculously low action ('73 with hairpin rods, and '86 Shadow with modern compression rods. Both had unplayable ski-slope necks when I bought them) and my son's '86 4003S, otherwise an exceptionally phenomenal sounding bass, that I cannot get the fretboard to be flat no matter what I do. So his bass is set up to medium-low action. There's variation and not every bass (Ric or other) can be set up flat.

If you must have a flat board with ultra-low action, look for a new Ric, check a few until you find the one.

[heinpete]

...my preference is also the lowest possible string height. With my 1974 4001 being completely overhouled by Jingle-Jangle it had all new frets. Having a decent low string height, there was still some space for improvement. So I decided to use the PLEK technology. Plek measures the height of each string seperately at the respektive fret and consideres the nut and the bridge in a calculation for the optimal, buzzfree fret height at each fret. After that the Robot-Dremel levels each fret string specific (e.g. ... 3. Fret E: minus 2 Micrometer, A: unchanged, D: minus 1 Micrometer, G: minus 3 Micrometer; 4. Fret E: minus 3 Micrometer, A: minus 1 Mikrometer, ...). I don't think that this accuracy can be acchieved manually. I had the Robot adjust my frets to the lowest level which was acchievable with a minimum of fret cut, but also with the opportunity to relax the completely straight neck a little bit, in case it would start buzzing some day.

The PLEK machine

...I completely aggree to Jonathan's statement below, that the best thing is to have the neck completely straight as it angles a bit forward towards the body anyway.

[Colonel Sanders]

...I completely aggree to Jonathan's statement below, that the best thing is to have the neck completely straight as it angles a bit forward towards the body anyway.

The angle is only due to the string tension. The said angle does not start on the 20th fret but depending on the bass, around the 16th or 17th fret (usually 1 or 2 frets pass the end of the heel.

So with that in mind, it is very difficult to have a perfectly flat neck unless you have you bass ''Plecked'', as you did.

I was considering this but the result of a Plek is only as good as the tech who will do it. Living in Australia, where there is only one Plek machine, I have read to many horror stories about the guys that own it to take this chance.