Luthier says: "RIC bass necks can't be flat"

[heinpete]

...Colonel, sorry, I disagree! Just a few days ago I could work on an 82' 4003 that had a very strong angle of the neck towards the body. I got it straight so that no Credit Card could fit between strings and frets when holding down the string at first and last fret. The only way to cope with that was to lower the bridge as far as possible and replace the bridge PU surround with a current, "dented" one, so that the strings don't rattle on the surround.

[Colonel Sanders]

...Colonel, sorry, I disagree! Just a few days ago I could work on an 82' 4003 that had a very strong angle of the neck towards the body. I got it straight so that no Credit Card could fit between strings and frets when holding down the string at first and last fret. The only way to cope with that was to lower the bridge as far as possible and replace the bridge PU surround with a current, "dented" one, so that the strings don't rattle on the surround.

P1020762.JPG

Take a straight edge to your entire fingerboard and you will most likely see that the angle will not start at the 20th fret.

But if for you a straight neck means that the gap between strings and frets is less than a credit card, then we are probably saying the same thing in a different way, a perfectly flat neck is not something to be chasing.

[jps]

But if for you a straight neck means that the gap between strings and frets is less than a credit card, then we are probably saying the same thing in a different way, a perfectly flat neck is not something to be chasing.

Agreed. I think most of my basses are less than that but certainly not ruler flat; the strings need some room to vibrate.

[ilan]

No no no. The action is not the same along the string. The bridge has to be higher than the nut (bottom of the grooves). The action at the 12th fret needs to be just high enough for the string to "bloom" (borrowing a term from the violin/viol family). And a fretted bass fretboard can be set up to dead straight - as long as the bridge height allows the string to bloom and not choke or fret out or buzz. That is how a Ric neck is designed to be set up. Fenders OTOH are designed to require a small relief, so that when you hold down the E string (life fretting a note) at the 1st and 12th frets, you (actually a second person...) should be able to slide a business card between the string and the 8th fret.

[RickyBubba]

I guess I got pretty lucky on my 3000. I ordered a new 4003 nut from Pick of the Ricks and put it right on with no mods, other than some light polish to make it look like it had a nice even finish.

The original nut had been badly ******** and couldn't get any decent tones out of it.

[heinpete]

Take a straight edge to your entire fingerboard and you will most likely see that the angle will not start at the 20th fret.

But if for you a straight neck means that the gap between strings and frets is less than a credit card, then we are probably saying the same thing in a different way, a perfectly flat neck is not something to be chasing.

...you're absolutely right: the angle starts right at the neck-body joint not just only after the 20. fret. As I pointed out, this was even stronger the case with that early 4003, having the ordinary hairpin Truss Rods of the 4001 only simply reversed. So here they are active from the very beginning of the neck at the body, still the 4003 exhibits this neck angle towards the body.

[heinpete]

No no no. The action is not the same along the string. The bridge has to be higher than the nut (bottom of the grooves). The action at the 12th fret needs to be just high enough for the string to "bloom" (borrowing a term from the violin/viol family). And a fretted bass fretboard can be set up to dead straight - as long as the bridge height allows the string to bloom and not choke or fret out or buzz. That is how a Ric neck is designed to be set up. Fenders OTOH are designed to require a small relief, so that when you hold down the E string (life fretting a note) at the 1st and 12th frets, you (actually a second person...) should be able to slide a business card between the string and the 8th fret.

...Ilan you're right, in case of Ricks you can't shim the neck like with F****s. That's why some of the Ricks have that neck angle towards the surface of the body.

[jps]

No no no. The action is not the same along the string. The bridge has to be higher than the nut (bottom of the grooves). The action at the 12th fret needs to be just high enough for the string to "bloom" (borrowing a term from the violin/viol family). And a fretted bass fretboard can be set up to dead straight - as long as the bridge height allows the string to bloom and not choke or fret out or buzz. That is how a Ric neck is designed to be set up. Fenders OTOH are designed to require a small relief, so that when you hold down the E string (life fretting a note) at the 1st and 12th frets, you (actually a second person...) should be able to slide a business card between the string and the 8th fret.

...Ilan you're right, in case of Ricks you can't shim the neck like with F****s. That's why some of the Ricks have that neck angle towards the surface of the body.

Okay, so how does this apply to bolt neck Ricks?

[cassius987]

It is super easy to get a Ric to have a flat neck. What this doesn't address is whether this produces the best setup.

Super low, even action along the fingerboard is another matter. I agree that a flat neck is not ideal, unless the neck angle is perfect and it rarely is. (Goes for Fender and the like, too, even with some shimming--there's always a little unevenness that makes the exact perfect setup hard to obtain.) I only see one in twenty basses that can really achieve totally even action out of the box (goes for all brands). And in a way, you want a slight increase (and I do mean *slight*) because string excursion increases as you go up the fingerboard, so totally even action along a fingerboard is sometimes not tenable no matter how you swing it.

At the end of the day, 99% of players probably accept a little more relief than the "ideal" and this is okay. It shapes the final sound, sometimes for the better.

"These can't have totally flat necks; either there is a hump in the middle, or humps at the nut and top of the board because that's just how their truss rods work." I was also told that the frets -- after the extensive (and expensive) fret-leveling job -- could not be "perfectly level" because of the frets are so low already, and because of all the lacquer on the fret-board.

I bet he said this because of working on my 2008 4003FL. It's great now, but when I brought it to him the fingerboard was very unevenly leveled which made setting it up next to impossible if you like low action (it's a fretless so you probably do...). He straightened the neck dead flat with the rod and leveled the fingerboard, which did the trick.

For a fretted bass you'd have to take off the frets and start from the "ground up" as it were. Roger Sadowsky has suggested this in the past (instead of fret work which he claims can be a band-aid to the real problem).

I don't know if Dave is right about how the truss rods are working in your bass exactly, but he's never steered me wrong on the final product. I consider him the best luthier/tech I've ever had help me with a Ric, period. You want to bring the bass over to my house and we can look at it together?

[heinpete]

It is super easy to get a Ric to have a flat neck. What this doesn't address is whether this produces the best setup.

Super low, even action along the fingerboard is another matter. I agree that a flat neck is not ideal, unless the neck angle is perfect and it rarely is...

...but for me it is still desirable . In case of this early 4003 the initial angle was beyond what was bearable. Straightening the neck 100% and lowering the bridge to a maximum (still intonating the strings) finally brought a usefull string height.

[cassius987]

Straightening the neck 100% and lowering the bridge to a maximum (still intonating the strings) finally brought a usefull string height.

Unfortunately that probably isn't doing the break angle of the strings over their saddles any favors (again a fault of the neck angle).

[heinpete]

...a sufficient break angle of the strings over the saddle is important for sound and avoidance of rattling. However the low bridge sometimes even requires a turn around of the saddle to retain the right intonation of the strings. This archaic tail piece/bridge combination is one of the worst anachronisms I came across. Since years I'm waiting for some RIC solution.

[ilan]

Okay, so how does this apply to bolt neck Ricks?

I have no idea. Guess I'd treat them as Fender necks and put some relief. It's all so much easier when you can control the neck angle.

[jps]

Okay, so how does this apply to bolt neck Ricks?

I have no idea. Guess I'd treat them as Fender necks and put some relief. It's all so much easier when you can control the neck angle.

I agree, and if needed a shim is a useful solution. Fortunately, the 2030GF is a wonderful bass with a nice low action (for me) neck. When I got it the action was a bit high, but after letting the bass acclimate to Cleveland from Montreal (late Winter/early Spring) I just did my usual thing (adjust truss rods, file nut slots, bridge adjustments, etc.) and all is fine. Did I mention how wonderful these basses are?

[cassius987]

Okay, so how does this apply to bolt neck Ricks?

I have no idea. Guess I'd treat them as Fender necks and put some relief. It's all so much easier when you can control the neck angle.

+1. All too true! Basically every lemon Ric I've played has got its lemon card from a bad neck angle. No fixing that without major surgery, like the tailpiece countersink on my 4001FL. Yes it works great, but it's a scary irreversible process and if the neck angle worsened for some reason would need to be repeated.