Before I talk about my problems...
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n51 ... 081959.jpg
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n51 ... 081959.jpg
I just got it a couple of days ago and it is a beautiful guitar. I've had limited experience with ricks throughout the years and this one seems like a keeper to me. I had a question about neck relief, though. I am getting some buzz audible through my amp on the third fret of the E string. 10-46's. My first though was to give the neck some relief, but when I took off the truss rod guard, the bass side rod was already all the way loose, I could move it with my fingers. Is this normal? I've already cranked the bridge as high as it goes and the buzz is still there. It doesn't look like a fret problem, but I am no expert. Maybe I should put something under the saddle? Any thoughts would be appreciated!
NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
-
DesmondWafers
- New member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:38 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
So I kept loosening the rods in small increments and I'm pretty sure that it's not doing anything and that I'm at maximum relief.
http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/Desmo ... 4.jpg.html
Something tells me that there's something wrong with this picture. I have met resistance while turning now, they're not movable by hand anymore.
EDIT: I pmed a mod to get this moved to the set up forum, sorry guys.
http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/Desmo ... 4.jpg.html
Something tells me that there's something wrong with this picture. I have met resistance while turning now, they're not movable by hand anymore.
EDIT: I pmed a mod to get this moved to the set up forum, sorry guys.
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Hi Cameron!
It is quite common for Rickenbackers that one rod does the job while the other is jobless. AFAIK this effect is more on the bass side - like Your guitar.
(For basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
There is an easy way to measure the neck bow: clamp a capo at the first fret and push the low and the high e string (one after the other) against the 15th, 16th or 17th fret (more does not make sense because the area above the neck heel is not really influenced by the rod).
Now measure the space between the 7th fret and the pushed string. When there is about 0,3mm (0,012") You are about on the right track. A feeler gauge or a plectrum of that thickness will tell You.
Theoretically You can adjust the neck dead straight - if there is enough room for the bridge to move). But it is not necessary to adjust it dead straight.
As You already know one rod often is doing the main job. So start with that rod and measure the string of its side. After that You measure (with that capo method) the other side. These should be more or less equal. A slight difference is not avoidable in every case.
When there is one "loose" rod in the end tight it that way that the screw-nut has a drop of torque. This avoids a rattling rod in the neck (what can cause a buzz, too!).
There is one rule of thumb: The older the guitar is the lower the saddle will be. This is caused in the set in neck construction. But no fear: A neck reset (gluing out and gluing in again in a changed angle) normally is necessary after 40 years or longer (or never).
If there is still a buzz there are a few more different options:
1. One fret is higher/ lower than the others. To measure that You need a dead straight neck and a steel scale. Or a luthier.
2. Maybe Your action (how to measure that please see below) is still too low: You can shorten the springs at the bridge screws. That gives more space for an adjustment. Before You shorten the springs take them out an have a look if this would provide enough space to compensate the buzz.
3. Another possibility is to use higher gauge strings (more tension!). Personally I play an 011 set. It sounds better and helps for the adjustment, too.
Maybe the buzz disappears already this way. Now You measure the action at the 12th fret. about 2mm (or a tad more or less) at the low e string and about 1,5mm at the high e string are quite comfortable. When You prefer to play distorted You can lower the strings a bit, also.
If this all does not help: Bring it back to the dealer. Or if the guitar is second hand/ grey market go to a luthier that is not in fear of the Rickenbacker way of construction.
(It would be nice when You post some results in between!)
Ah!, two important PSs:
1. ALWAYS the adjustment of the neck bow first, then the action. The adjustment of the action changes the forces in the neck. Sometimes You have to readjust the bow again (slightly!). Normally this is the case when the set up of the guitar is far away from the factory specs.
2. The guitar neck will thank You turning the rods just about a !/4 turn a day. Then measure and way until the next day (and measure again). This will avoid ruined necks, finish cracks and gives better results for the following action set up - IMHO.
Good luck!
It is quite common for Rickenbackers that one rod does the job while the other is jobless. AFAIK this effect is more on the bass side - like Your guitar.
(For basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
There is an easy way to measure the neck bow: clamp a capo at the first fret and push the low and the high e string (one after the other) against the 15th, 16th or 17th fret (more does not make sense because the area above the neck heel is not really influenced by the rod).
Now measure the space between the 7th fret and the pushed string. When there is about 0,3mm (0,012") You are about on the right track. A feeler gauge or a plectrum of that thickness will tell You.
Theoretically You can adjust the neck dead straight - if there is enough room for the bridge to move). But it is not necessary to adjust it dead straight.
As You already know one rod often is doing the main job. So start with that rod and measure the string of its side. After that You measure (with that capo method) the other side. These should be more or less equal. A slight difference is not avoidable in every case.
When there is one "loose" rod in the end tight it that way that the screw-nut has a drop of torque. This avoids a rattling rod in the neck (what can cause a buzz, too!).
There is one rule of thumb: The older the guitar is the lower the saddle will be. This is caused in the set in neck construction. But no fear: A neck reset (gluing out and gluing in again in a changed angle) normally is necessary after 40 years or longer (or never).
If there is still a buzz there are a few more different options:
1. One fret is higher/ lower than the others. To measure that You need a dead straight neck and a steel scale. Or a luthier.
2. Maybe Your action (how to measure that please see below) is still too low: You can shorten the springs at the bridge screws. That gives more space for an adjustment. Before You shorten the springs take them out an have a look if this would provide enough space to compensate the buzz.
3. Another possibility is to use higher gauge strings (more tension!). Personally I play an 011 set. It sounds better and helps for the adjustment, too.
Maybe the buzz disappears already this way. Now You measure the action at the 12th fret. about 2mm (or a tad more or less) at the low e string and about 1,5mm at the high e string are quite comfortable. When You prefer to play distorted You can lower the strings a bit, also.
If this all does not help: Bring it back to the dealer. Or if the guitar is second hand/ grey market go to a luthier that is not in fear of the Rickenbacker way of construction.
(It would be nice when You post some results in between!)
Ah!, two important PSs:
1. ALWAYS the adjustment of the neck bow first, then the action. The adjustment of the action changes the forces in the neck. Sometimes You have to readjust the bow again (slightly!). Normally this is the case when the set up of the guitar is far away from the factory specs.
2. The guitar neck will thank You turning the rods just about a !/4 turn a day. Then measure and way until the next day (and measure again). This will avoid ruined necks, finish cracks and gives better results for the following action set up - IMHO.
Good luck!
Last edited by Hotzenplotz on Fri May 23, 2014 7:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Additional information for measuring the action at the 12th fret:
(For basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
I found out that coins are very useful. - And they are always around You as a tool!
- Living in Europe I use our european Cent coins, of course.
In the US there all coins are useful!:
1 Cent = 1,55mm (=2/32" for the high e string)
1 Dollar= 2,00mm (for the low e string)
This is my personal basic set up.
For personal adjustments you can use the 50 Cents coin (2,15mm for a higher action at the low e string), 5 Cents (= 1,95mm for a lower action of the low e string, or the 25 Cents (= 1,75mm for a veeeeery low setup of the low e string).
The same for the high e string: 25 Cents (= 1,75mm for a higher action) and 10 Cents (1,35mm) for a lower action.
Here an overview of the measures of the US coins (Germans love to measure things!):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-Dollar#M.C3.BCnzen
All the guitars I adjust are measured by this coin method. And all of them leave the workbench completely buzz free with a comfortable smooth action. Fortunately the european 50 cent coin is exactly 3/32" (perfect for the low e string of acoustic guitars!).
So, in the end Your wallet is a perfect toolbox. - Always keep it filled up!
And do not forget: adjust the neck bow first! - If there is still a buzz after all adjustments there is something wrong with the frets or the nut (and please, do not try to correct that with sandpaper!!!).
(For basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
I found out that coins are very useful. - And they are always around You as a tool!
- Living in Europe I use our european Cent coins, of course.
In the US there all coins are useful!:
1 Cent = 1,55mm (=2/32" for the high e string)
1 Dollar= 2,00mm (for the low e string)
This is my personal basic set up.
For personal adjustments you can use the 50 Cents coin (2,15mm for a higher action at the low e string), 5 Cents (= 1,95mm for a lower action of the low e string, or the 25 Cents (= 1,75mm for a veeeeery low setup of the low e string).
The same for the high e string: 25 Cents (= 1,75mm for a higher action) and 10 Cents (1,35mm) for a lower action.
Here an overview of the measures of the US coins (Germans love to measure things!):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-Dollar#M.C3.BCnzen
All the guitars I adjust are measured by this coin method. And all of them leave the workbench completely buzz free with a comfortable smooth action. Fortunately the european 50 cent coin is exactly 3/32" (perfect for the low e string of acoustic guitars!).
So, in the end Your wallet is a perfect toolbox. - Always keep it filled up!
And do not forget: adjust the neck bow first! - If there is still a buzz after all adjustments there is something wrong with the frets or the nut (and please, do not try to correct that with sandpaper!!!).
Last edited by Hotzenplotz on Fri May 23, 2014 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
How to measure the nut:
Push one string after the other between the 3rd and the 4th fret. Now there should be a space left that fits to an ordinary business card.
If there is too less space the nut is filed too much and has to be exchanged. If there is noticeably more space than the thickness of a business card You need a nut file and the knowledge how to handle that - or a luthier.
How to measure the saddle:
(for basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
Knowing that the action for the low string is about 2mm and the high e string is abot 1,5mm the other strings between have to raise/ fall in degrees of about 0,1mm.
If there is something wrong with only one string of the saddle it is the same game like with the complete nut: too low = exchange that part (fortunately every string has gut its own saddle!), too high = nut file / luthier.
After all these steps of measuring and adjusting the setup of Your guitar should be a pure joy. In the beginning it takes some time, for sure.
A nice side effect is that You learn a lot about the habits of guitars. And every guitar has got its own "personality".
But no fear, as long as You measure one more time than adjusting things You can not do any harm. And only do things when You understand how and why You do that.
- In case of doubt go to a good luthier.
Push one string after the other between the 3rd and the 4th fret. Now there should be a space left that fits to an ordinary business card.
If there is too less space the nut is filed too much and has to be exchanged. If there is noticeably more space than the thickness of a business card You need a nut file and the knowledge how to handle that - or a luthier.
How to measure the saddle:
(for basic informations about the adjustments see manual or here: http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf )
Knowing that the action for the low string is about 2mm and the high e string is abot 1,5mm the other strings between have to raise/ fall in degrees of about 0,1mm.
If there is something wrong with only one string of the saddle it is the same game like with the complete nut: too low = exchange that part (fortunately every string has gut its own saddle!), too high = nut file / luthier.
After all these steps of measuring and adjusting the setup of Your guitar should be a pure joy. In the beginning it takes some time, for sure.
A nice side effect is that You learn a lot about the habits of guitars. And every guitar has got its own "personality".
But no fear, as long as You measure one more time than adjusting things You can not do any harm. And only do things when You understand how and why You do that.
- In case of doubt go to a good luthier.
-
DesmondWafers
- New member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:38 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
I guess I should have mentioned that it is a brand new guitar 
. Thanks for all of the info, I did some measuring and my neck relief is at .3 or .4 right now after tightening the rods back up last night. I have ruled out the nut as the buzz is still there with a capo. I don't think that it's the bridge or saddles either, when it's cranked all the way up; the action is way, way too high. This really just leaves the frets and the neck relief and I don't think I'm going to get any more relief. The frets seem fine, but I've never had a guitar with a fret problem before so I'm ignorant in that. I'm actually used to guitars having a lot of set up idiosyncrasies, I play jaguars a lot. I'm not at all irritated by this process, it's almost like a puzzle.
The action on the low e is larger than 2mm, probably like 2.5, so I don't think it's an issue.
I guess I'm stumped.
P.S. I find it very odd that I found a 50 cent german coin at work last night. Some old 50 cent coin from 1950. I'm sure that it's not the one you're talking about, but still quite a coincidence, someone's trying to tell me something...
. Thanks for all of the info, I did some measuring and my neck relief is at .3 or .4 right now after tightening the rods back up last night. I have ruled out the nut as the buzz is still there with a capo. I don't think that it's the bridge or saddles either, when it's cranked all the way up; the action is way, way too high. This really just leaves the frets and the neck relief and I don't think I'm going to get any more relief. The frets seem fine, but I've never had a guitar with a fret problem before so I'm ignorant in that. I'm actually used to guitars having a lot of set up idiosyncrasies, I play jaguars a lot. I'm not at all irritated by this process, it's almost like a puzzle.The action on the low e is larger than 2mm, probably like 2.5, so I don't think it's an issue.
I guess I'm stumped.
P.S. I find it very odd that I found a 50 cent german coin at work last night. Some old 50 cent coin from 1950. I'm sure that it's not the one you're talking about, but still quite a coincidence, someone's trying to tell me something...
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
So it is a job for the dealer who sold You that, isn't it?!DesmondWafers wrote:I guess I should have mentioned that it is a brand new guitar ...
It depends where You are located - and the dealer. A change in temperature and/or humidity can make a fresh set up necessary. If the distributor (if the dealer is not in Your area) parked his brown car for a few hours in the sun it can cause a neck twist. Anyway, I would give him a call. That is a huge grain of salt when buying a new guitar - and it happens from time to time.
.3 or .4 milimeters or inchDesmondWafers wrote:
with capo in the first fret position and string down at the about 17th fret (or did You use a steel scale?) ?!Yes, and a puzzle is just nice when it is solved in the end...DesmondWafers wrote: I have ruled out the nut as the buzz is still there with a capo. I don't think that it's the bridge or saddles either, when it's cranked all the way up; the action is way, way too high. This really just leaves the frets and the neck relief and I don't think I'm going to get any more relief. The frets seem fine, but I've never had a guitar with a fret problem before so I'm ignorant in that. I'm actually used to guitars having a lot of set up idiosyncrasies, I play jaguars a lot. I'm not at all irritated by this process, it's almost like a puzzle.
That is a lot! Rickenbackers normally are known for ther low and buzzfree action. Hard to say from here what exactly is wrong, now.DesmondWafers wrote: The action on the low e is larger than 2mm, probably like 2.5, so I don't think it's an issue.
Me, too! Very unusual for a brand new Rickenbacker, so far.DesmondWafers wrote: I guess I'm stumped.
Oh! That is the good old "Pfennig"! Not that new Euro Cent rubbish. (But as I said they are good for measuring, after all.)DesmondWafers wrote: P.S. I find it very odd that I found a 50 cent german coin at work last night. Some old 50 cent coin from 1950. I'm sure that it's not the one you're talking about, but still quite a coincidence, someone's trying to tell me something...
What is written on the front side? "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" or "Bank Deutscher Länder"?
If it is "Bank Deutscher Länder" it is worth about 750$!!! If not it is still a nice, little coin. Imagine: The day it was minted it was worth the price of a complete (self cooked) meal at home - for a complete family. Well, some things changed...
Maybe this coin wanted to foretell You that there is somebody far away who wants to put his 50 Cent in today?!
A strange coin(!)cidence, indeed!
Maybe this coin is a sign for tons of luck with that puzzle.
-
DesmondWafers
- New member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:38 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Well now I am starting to get stressed out about it, the dealer will only accept returns and whatnot before 15 days. Today was 15 days since I bought it and they told me that I will have to go through Rickenbacker from now on. After tightening the truss rods back to normal, the buzz is slightly worse. So I know for sure now that at rick specs of relief the first couple of frets will buzz, with bridge all the way up. It also buzzes at maximum relief with the bridge all the way up. I'm going to try to take it to a tech now, but the only one that knows a damn about Rickenbackers around here generally has a 1 month wait (or more). Maybe I can get him to take a look at it...
Also, it is a Bundesrepublik Deutschland coin. Damn, that 750 would have helped out right now!
Also, it is a Bundesrepublik Deutschland coin. Damn, that 750 would have helped out right now!
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Sascha -
You provided a wealth of information! Who knew that pocket change could be so valuable (for measuring!)?
Thanks!
You provided a wealth of information! Who knew that pocket change could be so valuable (for measuring!)?
Thanks!
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
You are located in the US, right?DesmondWafers wrote:Well now I am starting to get stressed out about it, the dealer will only accept returns and whatnot before 15 days. Today was 15 days since I bought it and they told me that I will have to go through Rickenbacker from now on. After tightening the truss rods back to normal, the buzz is slightly worse. So I know for sure now that at rick specs of relief the first couple of frets will buzz, with bridge all the way up. It also buzzes at maximum relief with the bridge all the way up. I'm going to try to take it to a tech now, but the only one that knows a damn about Rickenbackers around here generally has a 1 month wait (or more). Maybe I can get him to take a look at it...
Also, it is a Bundesrepublik Deutschland coin. Damn, that 750 would have helped out right now!
So, after the fast DIY way did not work contact the Rickenbacker customer's service. That is the best adress for a (maybe) warranty case - and it is for free. I am sure they sort this out for a satisfying result!
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
clementc3 wrote:Sascha -
You provided a wealth of information! Who knew that pocket change could be so valuable (for measuring!)?
Thanks!
-
DesmondWafers
- New member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:38 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Yes, I'm in the us. I'm going to try a pair of 11's today and if that does not work I am going to contact rick directly. I might try to get a tech at a rick dealer nearby to take a look and see what the problem is. I was thinking about it and perhaps it's just taking a while for the neck relief to set in, I have been adjusting it lot the past couple of days so I'm going to leave it at maximum relief for a while. Thank you for all of the help so far!
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
This 011 set trick is useful when the rods do not have to work much. If there is something wrog with the frets or if there is a neck twist it does not help.
The factory set is 010-046. Some play 009-042 on Rickenbackers. Generally the guitars should be able to handle that. Just as an information to avoid a waste of money.
And yes, it is a good Idea to give the neck some time to calm down after all that tweaking.
To ask a tech of a Rickenbacker dealer neraby is a good idea, too. Maybe he can find out a few details more. These informations can help to sort this out with the Rickenbacker customer service as well - if this is still necessary after the tech visit.
Good luck!
The factory set is 010-046. Some play 009-042 on Rickenbackers. Generally the guitars should be able to handle that. Just as an information to avoid a waste of money.
And yes, it is a good Idea to give the neck some time to calm down after all that tweaking.
To ask a tech of a Rickenbacker dealer neraby is a good idea, too. Maybe he can find out a few details more. These informations can help to sort this out with the Rickenbacker customer service as well - if this is still necessary after the tech visit.
Good luck!
-
DesmondWafers
- New member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:38 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
Well I got some new strings. The low e was a 54 and.....no luck. Still buzzing. The neck relief has not increased in the past couple of days either. It seems like the only culprit could be a bad fret???
-
Hotzenplotz
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:51 am
Re: NGD Ric 360 Neck relief
So my theory(!) is: One "bad" fret or maybe a twisted neck. Judging from the measures You told actually I can not find another explanation.
In both cases I would talk to the Rickenbacker customer service. Maybe You ask a local luthier as a confirmation. But when he says there is some work needed I would go via the RIC customer service, also - and not to void the warranty by changing the structure of the instument.
I am sure this issue will be solved soon.
In both cases I would talk to the Rickenbacker customer service. Maybe You ask a local luthier as a confirmation. But when he says there is some work needed I would go via the RIC customer service, also - and not to void the warranty by changing the structure of the instument.
I am sure this issue will be solved soon.