GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

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ReluctantBass
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by ReluctantBass »

eddied wrote:Read my posts on the Ric CO. forum. This bass is essentially a re-issue V63 selling for $3400. Mus. Friend now sells the standard 4003 for $1800 (price drop). How can you justify a $1600 difeence? You could buy 2 standard 4003's to this one 4001s.
I bought one today. It's not everyone's cup of tea. But it's definitely mine. The satin finish feels great and won't get tacky in the summer heat (outdoor gigs-- or in Texas, indoor gigs for that matter.) The neck is beefy, and is solid as a rock. The body is sleek. I LOVE it.
It's like anything. If you have the money it's worth every penny. If you don't, then you don't need to consider it. But don't knock it. Sure a 4003 is half the price, but a 4003 is run of the mill. This is one of 50 and it is aptly named: 4001 SPECIAL. It's absolutely great.
ReluctantBass
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by ReluctantBass »

jps wrote:This bass has worked just fine for Paul for decades; anybody here want to pick it apart? :?
Rick 4001S - McCartney 01.jpg
There is too much perspective distortion in that photo of the new 4001S laying in the case to get a read on alignments IMHO.
Paul hasn't PLAYED his in decades. :D But never mind that. I bought a 4001 SP from the Fort Worth TX store, and I love it.

The pickup is TRULY offset. I don't know why this is the case, but it is NOT perfectly centered. And guess what: it sounds EXACTLY like my 4001CS which is perfectly centered, and so it is not an issue. It's a very comfortable bass, and it's beautiful and sounds amazing. But it is not perfect. The nut is not cut deeply enough on the G and D strings, so I filed them deeper. There are a couple of tiny "bubbles" in the satin matte finish that I can feel, so I'll sand those a bit. But that's just Rickenbacker. They make them like they made them in the 60's. If you want state of the art PERFECTION, buy a Status Graphite bass from Rob Green (trust me, I have three, and they are beyond perfection in terms of precision.) But if you want a bass that sounds and looks like NOTHING else on the planet, and is the epitome of cool, buy Rickenbacker. And particularly, buy the 4001SP before they're gone. Because, let's face it: you'll be looking on eBay for the coming years trying to find one for a dream price. Life's too short. Grab it now. :)
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jps
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by jps »

I'm with you there, nothing in life is absolutely perfect, everything else is there to show the hand made nature of the craft, I have no issues with any of that. Some want an instrument tweaked to perfection, fine. I see these in a somewhat different vein. Plus, I understand the histories behind it all and applaud the way things are being made.
teeder
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by teeder »

I understand perfectly about needing to tweaking the neck & action for personal tastes, but an out of line bridge /tailpiece / pu, seeing the routing under the guard or having to sand out bubbles in the finish on a $3,400.00 bass is just wrong.
JohnRSC
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by JohnRSC »

ReluctantBass wrote:There are a couple of tiny "bubbles" in the satin matte finish that I can feel, so I'll sand those a bit. But that's just Rickenbacker. They make them like they made them in the 60's. If you want state of the art PERFECTION, buy a Status Graphite bass from Rob Green (trust me, I have three, and they are beyond perfection in terms of precision.) But if you want a bass that sounds and looks like NOTHING else on the planet, and is the epitome of cool, buy Rickenbacker. And particularly, buy the 4001SP before they're gone. Because, let's face it: you'll be looking on eBay for the coming years trying to find one for a dream price. Life's too short. Grab it now. :)
They don't make them like they made them in the 60's, there were no CNC machines then. John Hall boasted that the machines have an accuracy of.001" so there is no excuse for an off-center pickup. I believe you when you say that it does not make a difference in the sound but when you pay so much for an instrument it should not only sound perfect but look perfect too.
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inhuien
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by inhuien »

The back side of that bass is lurvly.
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woodyng
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by woodyng »

That is some seriously gorgeous walnut grain!
ReluctantBass
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by ReluctantBass »

gggoattt wrote:
Anyhoo, that being said...I just bought this yesterday. Couldn't pass it up...look at that grain!!! I've been waiting for a nice one to show up online and I snagged this one right away. Once I get it I'll check to see how straight everything is (there have been some crooked bridges on these) and will post back...
That is a beauty! Love the walnut grain. Does it have a matte finish, or did they apply Danish oil or tung oil to the body?
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Lefty4003S8
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by Lefty4003S8 »

WOW!!!! What a beauty!!!!!!!
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jdogric12
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by jdogric12 »

too busy working on something very special, perhaps?
sunsetjunk
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by sunsetjunk »

2014 bridge.jpg
I have been following this post and have tried really hard to stay out of it, but I feel I should share my recent 2014 Mid Blue purchase experience. I just picked this bass up a few weeks ago, brand new. It's by far the best Ric I have owned and currently own but it had it's share of issues.
1) The e and g string saddle cuts were skewed so far to the outside that the G string would roll off the neck if you weren't extra careful, and the E string would hit the tailpiece when plucked. You can see in the picture the E string is almost hitting just sitting there.
2) The ground wire going to the bridge was open, I traced it to a cold solder joint where it attaches under the string mutes. I took the bridge off and re-soldered the wire.
3) The the G string nut slot was way too high.

I bought 4 new bridge saddles from POTR for $5 each. So for very little money and some time spent filing new string slots in the saddles to my liking, a little nut work, and some soldering I now have a great bass.

The bass now feels like it's "MY" bass because I have put some of my time and work into it. It's hard to explain but maybe some of the gearheads or tinkeres out there would understand. It sounds silly but it's kind of a bonding experience.
I guess my point is Rics are Rics and some will have little quirks like this. To me it's part of their character and I love them anyway. It's kinda like older muscle cars or vintage British motorcycles like Nortons or Vincents. Sure there are faster, better handling and braking cars or bikes. But there's more to the driving/riding experience than just performance. There's " how does that bike or car make you feel when you drive it, or even just look at it" It something that goes deeper than just specifications, just like a Ric is more than the sum of it's sometimes quirky parts.

Anyway, besides these issues, I was so impressed with this bass I bought another one "Ruby Red" from Wildwood Guitars in Colorado, I will receive it this Tuesday. They received 3 Ruby Red 4003's last Tuesday, I bought mine Wed, and by Thursday the other 2 were sold.

Just to get back on topic, Guitar Center in Arlington Heights Illinois had a 4001S Special in their Platinum room. I checked it out and it was pretty cool with no issues. It wasn't my thing though, but it was a pretty cool Ric.
sunsetjunk
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by sunsetjunk »

Oh yeah, a couple of more things I would like to mention.
Ric fully stands behind their product with a 5 year warranty. I'm sure they would fix these issues if contacted. A few years ago I bought a new 4003 FireGlo. After spending some time with it I noticed an issue with the fingerboard, took some pictures and sent them to Ric customer service. They responded back right away, acknowledged the issue, the bass was shipped back and fixed, no problems.

As far as CNC machining goes. I'm a certified Mold Maker, which is part of the Tool and Die Industry. CNC machining is not the end all be all of accuracy. There is still a extremely large human element involved, it's the CNC operator a "Human". The "Computer Numerical Control-CNC" part of it is just a program, and just the program (Tool Paths) will repeat exactly the same, every single time, relative to their coordinates. But what comes about from those tool paths and their programmed reference to a coordinate is influenced by many variables.

The very basic variables that come into play are (1) operator (2)machine and (3) cutting tools. But all three of these are dependent on the operators skill level and diligence to machine maintenance, and knowledge of how to compensate for machine and tool wear.

1) The program is created around a coordinate system that is assigned to the part to be machined. When the part or fixtured part is installed in the machine it's location is picked up by the operator and entered into the CNC machines offset or coordinate system library with a given name that the 'CNC program" uses as reference.
If the operator does not pick up the work piece or fixture location properly the program will run the tool paths but they will be out of location relative to the work piece (guitar/bass).

(2) If the machine is not well maintained or worn out, like if there is play in the ways, run out in the spindle, or it's spindle cooling system is not working properly. the machine will not be able to cut within tolerance. If the operator did not let the machine reach operating temperature there will be a difference between the part that was machined when the machine was cold compared to a part that was machined when the machine reached operating temperature.

3) If the cutters are worn, their diameter being smaller, they will take off less material than programmed. If the cutters are not spinning true ( too much run out) they will take off more material than programmed. If the cutters are deflecting, they will take off less material than programmed.

These are just the easy to understand basics given to get my point across, there are many more variables involved that will effect the outcome of a CNC machined part.

CNC machining is an Awesome thing for sure, but for it to do it's thing correctly and consistently it needs to be programmed by and experienced programmer and operated by a competent CNC operator, running a well maintained CNC machine.
Last edited by sunsetjunk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cassius987
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by cassius987 »

Really enlightening post Frank, thank you.
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by FabGearHead »

Frank, thank you for the CNC explanation. From what I have observed in the pictures that have been posted, (thanks for the pics, guys!) it appears that the center line index is not being adhered to. The bass itself, though asymmetrical in shape, still has a "true" center running the length of the middle maple insert which transitions into the neck.

Since this establishes the fingerboard taper as well, all of the other components would then be subject to the actual center of the maple insert. The neck pickup, the treble pickup, the tailpiece, and ultimately the bridge would all be aligned the same on this true center. If the neck pickup position was established on center, it would make sense that the pickguard would then be placed correctly without the visible gaps and puckering caused by the pickguard binding in places.

Frank, do you believe that RIC is not using CNC to locate the holes for these parts? Could the CNC simply make slight holes which the worker mounting parts can use as a guide for hand drilling?

I am looking for solutions here. It is clear from the pictures that an issue is definitely going on and I don't care to bash RIC, as I too am a long time lover of Rickenbacker.
As to the touch-ups by the neck joint, I would show them how to deal with that for free if they would buy my ticket out there. I have spent a lifetime restoring, repairing, and building guitars and other stringed instruments and I have learned most of what I DO know, by learning what NOT to do! Tough school, that!

Jim
sunsetjunk
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Re: GC Rickenbacker 4001S Special?

Post by sunsetjunk »

Hi Jim
It's true that everything like pickups, tailpiece/bridge/saddle slots should be lined up/ centered relative to the neck centerline, with distances relative to the nut maintained. Outside body dimensions should NOT be used as reference for line up. Outside dimensions do not come into play as far as scale length or pickup positioning. So creating a jig for referencing pickup and bridge locations relative to outside dimensions will not get you where you need to be.
Example:
One of the variables in a hand finished guitar or bass are the outside dimensions. The wood is CNC machined. So all things being equal, Program, machine and operator, the bodies will all be the same when they come out of the machine.
But the bodies are hand sanded and wood being what it is, very unique per piece, some bodies will require more hand work than others to achieve acceptable cosmetics. Now the bodies are no longer the same dimensionally.
Lets pretend that we just machined 3 bodies, all 3 required a different amount of sanding, now we have 3 bodies that are all a little bit different in their overall body dimensions. If you located the pickups, tailpieces and pickguards to the outside dimensions, each guitars critical components are going to line up differently relative to the necks centerline and relative to their distance from the nut.
If you ALWAYS work off the centerline of the neck and distance from the nut, the guitars critical components will ALWAYS be the same relative to these reference points. It will never matter how much hand sanding a body receives. You could have sanded 1/4" off the wings and it wouldn't matter. When it comes time to install the pickups and bridge assembly, you are going to use the NECK centerline and Nut for positioning.
(1st) Distance from the NUT to BRIDGE maintained to achieve correct scale length.
(2nd) Bridge centered to neck centerline.
(3rd) Pickups centered to neck centerline.
(4th) Pickups distance from nut established. Once the scale length is achieved with the bridge positioning, the pickup can be located from a dimension measured relative to the nut or the bridge.
(5) Bridge saddle slots cut with keeping an eye on string spacing on neck and pickup pole alignment. With the string spacing on the neck getting priority over pickup pole positioning.

From watching the videos posted one Rickenbacker construction techniques,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEuqgZzKxC4

it looks to me that the pickguard mounting holes are hand drilled just like the TRC. Same goes for the strap buttons and the bridge and treble pickup mounting screw holes. This is how I would do it. I would never lock myself into final component positioning by CNC machining the mounting holes.
The CNC just cuts the clearance pockets and routes in the body for the pickups, wires and control cavity. These are made a little bigger than needed to give the assembler some wiggle room to account for production tolerances.
When the pickguard (which the bass pickup is actually mounted to) gets installed the assembler can shift it around a little to get the neck pickup to line up with the neck centerline. Once that looks good, it could be held in place and the screws holes would be drilled into the body by hand using the pickgurad screw holes as a template.
Then the same for the treble pickup assembly. It's dropped into place, moved a bit to find it's center relative to the neck centerline, then once it looks good the screw holes are drilled into the body by hand using the chrome surround mounting holes as template.

From my experience, there is not much wiggle room for the bridge assembly. So the bridge would get installed into it's CNC machined pocket. But to compensate for any misalignment here we have the uncut bridge saddles. Once the bridge is screwed into position, you can install the strings and position them on the saddles to set string spacing and string alignment relative to the neck with the neck and hopefully the pickup poles at the same time(but pickup pole alignment isn't all that critical, unless it's way out. adjustable pole pieces can help compensate for this, as well as balancing output between strings, and tone).
Mark the string position on the saddles, then cut your slots.
Hope that helps explain a bit about how it all comes together and what's important as far as references and locating.

I can't say for sure this is how Ric does it, but I have decades of machining and product development experience, dealing with complex mechanical assemblies, and knowing what I know along with taking apart many 4001/4003 basses it looks to me that this is how it's done. It's at least how I would do it.
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