12 String Tuners - Vintage vs Modern

[alecstar]

While I have been enjoying playing my new 660/12 and loving the look of it more, now that I've changed the gold pickguards and truss rod cover to white, I am wondering if it will accept, without any modification, the modern Schaller tuners versus the vintage ones that come on it. While the vintage ones are alright, they do not seem to have the same smooth feel that other Schallers I have had on numerous other guitars. It always seems that "vintage" tuners do not work as well. Is it me or are they inferior to the modern ones? And will the modern ones fit? Thanks......

[jingle_jangle]

Changed the gold for white? THAT'S a switch! Congratulations on not following the pack, Mitch!

The vintage Kluson tuners are not as precise nor as long-lasting as the modern Schallers. This is a leftover from the guitar's position as a non-signature extension of the Tom Petty 12s, which themselves were an adaptation of Mike Campbell's 12 string #3.

Unfortunately, the Klusons take two mounting holes apiece and the Schallers only one. And although I haven't made the swap in awhile, I also recall the Schallers needing a larger post hole in the headstock. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken...

[randyz]

Mitch: While I applaud your change to white trim (I've never found the gold appealing), I can't imagine changing from vintage tuners to Schallers. While Schallers are superior tuners, I personally prefer the look of the vintage tuners. Another thing to consider is the increased weight of the Schallers. With a small body guitar like a 600-series, You may find the guitar to be very top heavy after the conversion. I'd think twice if I were you.

[jingle_jangle]

Good point, Randy...12 Schaller minis weigh over a pound! Toss those onto a headstock and learn very quickly about neck dive!

Altogether, not many reasons to swap. And those Klusons do look cool. My '66 450/12 has 'em, and though a bit sticky, they don't go out of tune after 40 years...

[loverickbass]

My Schallers, the G and B pairs always hit each other. The buttons are too big. And the tuner itself is loosey goosey in the hole. I'd rather have the vintage type.

Cole

[jingle_jangle]

Cole, you have an anomalous situation; this is not typical.

There are few places on a 12-string Rick where woodworking tolerances can cause problems with fit--even when CNC machines are used to locate the critical mounting points for components. The 12-string headstock is one.

My long-pre-CNC June '66 450/12 actually has a couple of buttons ground away (factory, I believe) so they clear each other. All the holes were drilled by hand on a drill press with a jig that probaby had seen better days. (WOW!!! Could this have been the same jig that drilled Harrison's and McGuinn's headstocks? Maybe Carl Wilson's too??? Call EBay!!!)

It sounds like in your case, the shaft holes could be correct, but possibly the screw holes--which are drilled by hand in final assembly--could have been drilled while the tuner was rotated to the wrong position. This could cause the problem you cite.

[loverickbass]

Interesting. I've had two guitars with that situation, both post 2000 models. Come to think of it,both where made in 2000.

Paul, I've heard that walnut doesn't hold the screw as well as maple. Do you find that to be a fact?

Cole

[ken_j]

Maybe some one who has both varieties on two different instruments can comment on this. If I recall correctly the length of the tuner post and the position of the string hole as measured from the body of the tuner is taller on the modern tuners. Does this result in a different position of the headstock slots from the edge. In other words would the modern tuner string holes line up properly in the slot or end up too deep toward the center of the headstock?

[teb]

The factory lists the weight of the 330/12, 360/12, 620/12 and 660/12 as all being the same. If this is reasonably close to being true, the weight of the bodies must be pretty close and I'm not sure I buy into the fear of creating neck dive by switching tuners. Personally, I really dislike the vintage tuners. In my opinion, they feel cheap and crude and the sheet-metal-box look doesn't do much for me. After owning a 660/12 I was very glad my 360/12WB came with Schallers. Then again, I'm not concerned with trying to duplicate any particular vintage look, I just want a guitar that plays and works great for me. Your priorities and aesthetic opinions may be different.

One of the items in the standard package of Arnquist mods for twelves is to deal with the loose tuner screw problem, so it must be fairly common.

Quote: "7- The tuners mounted on the side of the headstock are removed, the screw holes plugged and redrilled with a #44 bit, then the screws inserted, then removed to form 'threads' and a drop of Cyanoacrylate glue is drizzled into the hole to harden the walls of this cavity. This allows the screw to tighten more and keep these tuners snug."

[jingle_jangle]

I do have both and will check this when I get home tonight.

Cole, I think in general this could be true. But there are many factors--diameter of pilot hole and hardness of the individual pieces of wood concerned, which make this far from scientific.

In any event, the small sizes of the wood screws (#3 and 4) mean that there is not a lot of fudge factor involved in getting those screws to hold properly. The function of the screws on the newer Schallers is primarily to keep the tuner bodies from rotating. The hex post retainer sleeves do the lion's share of holding the tuners in place.

In the case of the older Klusons, the twin screws both hold the tuner in place and prevent rotation, as these merely protrude through the circular bushings.

Incidentally, the newer Schallers, when used on the RIC 12-string headstock, require optional longer hex bushings than the standard ones provided with the Schallers. The standards are too short to properly engage the threads on the tuner bodies.

[will_nesbitt]

I have a problem with a couple of tuners hitting each other on my 620/12. But whenever they do clash when I'm tuning up, I loosen one of the strings and tighten it back up again. That works. And the only reason that some of the tuners miss each other is because some have loose screws.

I have had no problems with my Dano, but I suppose it's a case of the more there is, the more things are to go wrong.

[johnashfield]

Now and then the schaller tuners will move a bit and almost touch on my 360/12. Not a huge deal though.

I kinda like the way the vintage ones look, but the ones it came with work amazingly well. The guitar just stays in tune!

[rivesono]

I keep wishing to replace the modern Schallers on my 360/12 and put on vintage style Klusons instead. Anyone done this?

[jdogric12]

Don't do it. They won't work as well. However, actual vintage Klusons are great!

[iiipopes]

I still have the original nickel plated Klusons on mine. Occasionally I get an interference: I just back one tuner off to clear until the next one is tuned, and usually the key ends up in a different position so I can retune without issue. Only one tuner - one of the B string tuners - ever slips. Even then, it is only a tweak and go.

Here's the main deal: a few years ago I purchased a set of nickel stamped mandolin bushings from Stew-Mac. I trimmed the collars to fit the slots in the headstock, and installed them on the lateral tuners. That solved 99% of my tuning stability issues.