1980's 4003 neck repair... help!

[YZZ]

HI

I've had my Rickenbacker 4003 for about 12 years now. Awesome bass... However when i bought it, it had an old neck repair done at the joint where the neck meets the body - the neck had apparently been totally separated from the body at some point. Haven't thought too much about that, i've just played the thing all these years.

Just a couple of days ago, i realized that this neck repair is not well done! The neck sits too high because whoever did that neck repair, inserted a shim between the neck and the body and then glued the thing together. Not only that but the neck is apparently in a bit of an angle sideways as well which is why the bridge has been moved as well.

Feel a bit like an idiot for not noticing this until now... but i have never taken the bass apart.
Two reasons i noticed it now: I was going to give the bass some TLC.

1. I was finally going to replace the pickguard because the old one was bent. Now i see why it was bent... because a pickguard that is actually flat can NEVER fit because the truss rod nuts are too high... Naturally this made me take a look at the neck height and i saw the "extra" wooden piece beneath the truss rod nuts. See pic. So i compared the with a friends Rickenbacker and googled photos of other 1980's Rickenbackers... It obviuosly looks totally different. Now i know that the underside of the rosewood fingerboard should be pretty much flush with the body. Then the truss rod nuts would be in the cavity - thus the pickguard would fit.

2. Above reasons made me also remove the bridge. That's when i see that the bridge has been moved to the right... original screw holes are filled. Also the pickups are set at maximum height to match the height of the neck.

SOO what to do?? Keep as it is or fix?
Of course, i want to fix this. The only way would be to remove the neck, fix the shim and put it back together, which i probably could do (handy and have done a couple of re-frets and whatnot). However, it's a big operation on a dear instrument and of course a risk that it might not end up as expected... It plays well as it is but obviously it's not a great situation. Maybe i'll just send it to a luthier.
What do you guys think? Do you know of a good way to remove the neck safely/remove the glue?

The bass. Very obvious how the pickguard has been bent to fit, now that i know what i know.


The neck repair... the middle piece is the shim i mentioned, very obvious when i removed pickguard. Also the truss rod ends are bent. Easy to see that the neck sits high.




Underneath the bridge one can see the original plugged screw holes. The cavity is also a bit carved to allow the bridge to sit a bit more to the right.


The strap buttons have also been moved sometime ago. (makes no sense to me?!)


The whole naked bass



Found some photos on Google... Not sure if they are from here but i hope any potential original poster don't mind - in that case, let me know
This is how this cavity should look like:


Here it is even more evident without the fretboard, how the neck sits towards the body on these 80's Ric's.

[Dirk]

My condolences, I've never seen a repair like that, sorry to say it but yikes.

I don't understand the shim, at all. That alone causes way too many problems.
Sad to say if I were to try and restore it, I'd somehow remove the shim completely.
That would require cutting out the offending wood and somehow getting it flat as well while still attached.

The shim has located the rods upward, so you'll never be able to use a regular pickguard with it.

And of course that shim then affects the bridge height and adjustment.

The effort required to repair this would have me running away, I'd have to charge the cost of new 4003 to fix this if it was possible at all.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but why sugar coat things?

Or of course you could just live with it and adjust everything to make it reasonably playable.

Good luck,
Dirk

[YZZ]

My condolences, I've never seen a repair like that, sorry to say it but yikes.

I don't understand the shim, at all. That alone causes way too many problems.
Sad to say if I were to try and restore it, I'd somehow remove the shim completely.
That would require cutting out the offending wood and somehow getting it flat as well while still attached.

The shim has located the rods upward, so you'll never be able to use a regular pickguard with it.

And of course that shim then affects the bridge height and adjustment.

The effort required to repair this would have me running away, I'd have to charge the cost of new 4003 to fix this if it was possible at all.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but why sugar coat things?

Or of course you could just live with it and adjust everything to make it reasonably playable.

Good luck,
Dirk

Thanks Dirk, i really appreciate the honesty!

I have a theory on why the shim exists:
1. Accident happens = The neck snaps off. Not a clean break meaning lots of offending wood.
2. The offending wood is removed, making a nice a flat surface on the neck heel and the neck pocket to re-attach the neck.
3. But this means that the neck is going to sit too low because there is now missing wood.
4. Solution; a shim.
However, they made a mistake and the shim is made too thick which has created this problem.

Yep exactly. The shim causes rod to be higher up which makes pickguard not fit. Bridge height and adjustment is very high and odd. Pickups are at maximum height. But very low string height on the neck...

My initial idea to fix this would be:
1. Preferrably heat the glue, or just saw off the neck through the shim, to remove neck from body.
2. Remove offending wood.
3. Remove the shim.
4. Put together neck and body now in the correct height and angle. Make new shim in correct measurement if required.

Or am i missing something? Seems doable?

The bass plays great, apart from needing a fret levelling, so i could just leave it as is... but it does indeed cause problems as nothing can ever be adjusted, which is... annoying.

[Dirk]

This will be a gigantic amount of effort, but sure why not.
It's not like you can make is worse at this point.

Here's my suggestions if you go forward:
remove the body wings from the neck (heat ungluing works, but take your time) or just cut them off
plane the back of the neck in the body section to remove the shim and flatten the back of the neck
glue a new piece of wood, make sure your height is correct, you could also make a laminate piece with maple and a skunk stripe
or you could just use maple since it's only on the back
glue the wings back on and enjoy!

Looking back at the pictures I had a thought, you could cut out the offending shim and actually make it more of set neck rather than neck through. A good sharp chisel, and you could also make a square end that will be easier to glue. However I don't believe that will be strong enough, not enough glue area. If it were my call I'd go with my first suggestion.


Best of luck to you!
Dirk

[YZZ]

This will be a gigantic amount of effort, but sure why not.
It's not like you can make is worse at this point.

Here's my suggestions if you go forward:
remove the body wings from the neck (heat ungluing works, but take your time) or just cut them off
plane the back of the neck in the body section to remove the shim and flatten the back of the neck
glue a new piece of wood, make sure your height is correct, you could also make a laminate piece with maple and a skunk stripe
or you could just use maple since it's only on the back
glue the wings back on and enjoy!

Looking back at the pictures I had a thought, you could cut out the offending shim and actually make it more of set neck rather than neck through. A good sharp chisel, and you could also make a square end that will be easier to glue. However I don't believe that will be strong enough, not enough glue area. If it were my call I'd go with my first suggestion.


Best of luck to you!
Dirk

Sounds like a solid plan, thank you!
I'll definitely do your first suggestion if i move forward.

A bass pal pointed out that the shim could have been made thicker to allow the repair to be stronger, to accomodate the two wooden rods that's glued through the back to have more material to "bite" on.
Do you think that is the case and would you think there is a risk regarding the strength of the repair to restore to the original height?

Hope my question makes sense!

[Dirk]

To be honest, modern glues will most times be stronger than the wood itself.
I guess I can see the motivation to plug and dowel it, but that's a wood worker trick not a luthier trick.
Works great on furniture, not so great on a neck joint.

Now not knowing what's underneath it's hard to guess, but there could also be a pair of screws in there.
I'd check it with a stud finder or a magnet before you start cutting.

Looking at the shim again, you might be able to saw it out, which looks like how the original repair was done.
Notice the scratches on the bass by the neck. So that would be easier than sawing off the wings and going that route.
I think you might want to leave some extra shim though, you can always remove more later, it's much tougher to add it back.

Also to me you should be able to apply heat and very carefully use a nice sharp chisel from the inside of the "neck pocket".
That should be able to release the neck. I have used an electric iron that worked great for helping me remove a fingerboards.
It takes time and lots of patience, but since it's less that 6 inches, it's much easier than releasing a fingerboard.

Bottom line you have to remove the over sized shim first.

By the way please don't accept my suggestions as the only solution, there are I'm sure other ways this could be fixed.
And I accept no responsibility for the outcome, I'm a builder and a player just trying to be helpful.

Good luck,
Dirk

[YZZ]

Ok great, i understand! I've consulted with some others as well so i have a couple of options, but i find your suggestions make a lot of sense.
I'll try first with the heat and chisel, plan B to saw through the shim then. Hopefully i'll manage to save this bass.

Thank you so much for all your help! I really appreciate it, it will help me a lot going forward.
Have a nice weekend.

//Daniel

[jps]

I guess I can see the motivation to plug and dowel it, but that's a wood worker trick not a luthier trick.
Works great on furniture, not so great on a neck joint.

Like these!

[Dirk]

Damn fine dovetails too Jeff!
I'd be proud of that wood work.
Dirk

[doctorwho]

...I guess I can see the motivation to plug and dowel it, but that's a wood worker trick not a luthier trick.
...

I once owned a 4001 FG that had such a repair:

That one, although a bit ugly, was actually a solid repair and the bass was a good player, so if you can effect a good repair, the bass should serve you well. Good luck!

[jps]

Damn fine dovetails too Jeff!
I'd be proud of that wood work.
Dirk

Wish I could claim it as made by my own hands!

A certain Mr. Gustav Stickley's company, Craftsman Workshops, made it in 1912. #819 sideboard.