1981 3-pickup factory wiring?

[Blomp]

Hi

I recently got a good deal on a slightly beat up looking 320 that is dated to November 1981 according to the serial. Apart from the tuners which have been swapped out for schallers (the evidence of klusons having been there originally is clearly visible), the guitar seems all original, and is in excellent playing condition apart from some fret wear that's nothing out of the ordinary for a guitar that's over 40 years old - but I have some questions about the wiring. There's no indication that the wiring has been tampered with, but the way it's wired up is not what I expected:

The bridge and middle pickups are connected together on the same lug of the pickup selector, and routed through the same pathway to the output jack - the .0047 hi pass filter cap, and "treble" volume and tone pots. The neck pickup alone is connected to the opposite side of the switch, routed through the blender control and the "bass" volume and tone pots.

I was under the impression that normally the bridge pickup was on its own on one side of the switch and the neck and middle were connected together on the other side - so that you have the neck and middle pickups both running through the blender control and the "bass" vol/tone pots, and the bridge on its own going through the filter cap and the "treble" vol/tone?

[doctorwho]

You are correct.

These wiring diagrams are from the Rittor book:

Rittor-Wiring_crp_rtd.jpg (191.56 KiB) Viewed 32200 times

The upper one with the dotted lines would be the three pickups/five controls arrangement, as it should be on your 320. AS you have stated, the neck ("F" in the schematic) pickup and the middle pickup should be wired to the same lug on the selector switch, and the bridge pickup wired alone to the other one.

[Blomp]

Thanks - yeah that's how I thought it should be. Although the wiring in mine does kinda look like a factory wiring job.

Interestingly, I found one other 320 - from 1978 - on youtube, that sounds like it's wired up the same way as mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpw-lHvu47I

Is it possible that this was actually the stock wiring layout on this model for a few years? Like maybe they decided to make a small change to give the 320 a more "funky" sound as a response to the popularity of disco music in the late 70s?

In any case I'm gonna change it to how it's shown in the above diagram. sonically it's more desirable to me to have the bridge pickup on its own and the neck and middle together.

[iiipopes]

I respectfully disagree with doctorwho. I also own a 1981 320. On mine, the neck and middle pickup were wired together going to the 5th knob, as in the attached 3pu link. Caveat: the 320 diagram is missing the .047 in-line "jangle" capacitor. The second link is for 2pu guitars that does show the in-line capacitor. Now, I have rewired mine with a push-pull on the 5th knob, which was discussed on the old RIC forum; the thread was twenty-five web pages' worth. Please let me know if you would like to know what I did to the wiring on my guitar to make it more versatile, while retaining all of the original factory functioning, unlike some players who disconnected the 5th knob, or re-wired the 5th knob only to the middle pickup, etc. Links:
https://justrickenbackers.com/resources ... ematic.jpg
https://justrickenbackers.com/resources ... ematic.jpg

[doctorwho]

I respectfully disagree with doctorwho. ...

Thanks for shooting the messenger!

I checked to see if I had taken pictures of the wiring harness of any of the 320 series I have owned .. the only one I have is the one on my former 1984 325v59 JG, which doesn't have the fifth control (3PU-4C), so I know that this won't help for this discussion (but here it is anyway! ):

1984 325v59 wiring

P5110063.JPG (226.88 KiB) Viewed 32131 times

[iiipopes]

I respectfully disagree with doctorwho. ...

Thanks for shooting the messenger!

I checked to see if I had taken pictures of the wiring harness of any of the 320 series I have owned .. the only one I have is the one on my former 1984 325v59 JG, which doesn't have the fifth control (3PU-4C), so I know that this won't help for this discussion (but here it is anyway! ):


P5110063.JPG

The older 4-knob versions may have been wired differently than the later 5-knob versions. I stand by my comments, owning a 1981 320, that the mid and neck pickups are wired together on the stock wiring on that era of 320's and 325's, not any "reissue" or other variants.

[Blomp]

I must confess I was having a hard time explaining my question and I think you guys are actually both saying the same thing but responding to different parts of my first post where I wasn't entirely clear so you think you're disagreeing but actually aren't!

But yes, even though the 325c58 is a little different overall I can see from the photo how the pickup wiring is different. I always imagined that the neck/middle together was the 'correct' way. But I got this one a few weeks ago and quickly realised it was wired with the bridge/middle together and the neck separate, and then saw a video of one on youtube, and some gutshots of other late '70s early '80s 320s that were wired like that.

My intention is to simply move the middle pickup wires over to 'correct' it. To me it definitely makes more sense to have the bridge pickup on its own through the .0047 cap, and the neck/middle together through the blender knob.

[iiipopes]

I must confess I was having a hard time explaining my question and I think you guys are actually both saying the same thing but responding to different parts of my first post where I wasn't entirely clear so you think you're disagreeing but actually aren't!

But yes, even though the 325c58 is a little different overall I can see from the photo how the pickup wiring is different. I always imagined that the neck/middle together was the 'correct' way. But I got this one a few weeks ago and quickly realised it was wired with the bridge/middle together and the neck separate, and then saw a video of one on youtube, and some gutshots of other late '70s early '80s 320s that were wired like that.

My intention is to simply move the middle pickup wires over to 'correct' it. To me it definitely makes more sense to have the bridge pickup on its own through the .0047 cap, and the neck/middle together through the blender knob.

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

[Blomp]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

mine is a 1981 with hi-gains

I changed the wiring this morning anyway - much better! I did consider just leaving the middle pickup disconnected, but decided to re-connect it to the same switch terminal as the neck pickup, so it's the correct factory spec. I'm getting all the sounds I want out of it now

[iiipopes]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

mine is a 1981 with hi-gains

I changed the wiring this morning anyway - much better! I did consider just leaving the middle pickup disconnected, but decided to re-connect it to the same switch terminal as the neck pickup, so it's the correct factory spec. I'm getting all the sounds I want out of it now

The other option is as I modified my 1981 320: put a push-pull DPDT in the place of the fifth knob. This way I have two completely different wirings:

push-pull switch down - vintage, meaning the pickup selector selector switch
down: bridge pickup with in-line capacitor
middle: bridge and neck
up: neck pickup

push-pull switch up - modern, meaning the pickup selector switch
down: middle pickup, no in-line capacitor in the circuit
middle: middle and neck
up: neck pickup

The pot part of the push-pull is still wired as a traditional fifth knob to fine tune the neck pickup for balance. All controls retain their original functions. The mods are not noticeable from the "five-foot" test, meaning from five feet away, you can't tell anything has been done to the guitar. I have found this modification has drastically improved the overall tone of the guitar, made it more versatile, and therefore much more enjoyable to play, all the way from emulating tones off the records to forging a path for a player's own style and tones.

It is regrettable that my twenty-five page thread about my re-wiring of three-pickup instruments on the old RIC forum was eliminated when RIC updated their forum. On the old forum, by request, I was able to send my diagram for this wiring, again by request, to all fifty states, all the provinces of Canada, most of the European countries, and various Pacific rim countries, including Australia, before the thread was killed.

[scott_s]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

Hey Scott, have you heard this theory on the middle pickup?

[iiipopes]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

Hey Scott, have you heard this theory on the middle pickup?

I had heard the middle pickup was disconnected, but never a why. In an age before pickups were sold as replacement parts, this is plausible, indeed! Now, I wonder who did the work? The store JL purchased the guitar from? Hessy's where he installed the Bigsby? We may never know.

[Blomp]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

Just an additional thing to add to this thread:

I finally got around to measuring the DCR of the pickups. I'd measured the neck as 13k before adjusting the wiring. the readout of the two pickups in parallel (neck+middle) is now 4k, but I didn't think to measure that pickup while it was on its own. The bridge pickup is 5.9k. the fact that the combined DRC of the bridge + middle in parallel was about 2.95k makes me think the middle pickup's DCR is very close to that of the bridge

I'm surprised that hi-gains would have a DCR this low, but that makes the bridge pickup on its own with the .0047uf cap sound very very bright, detailed and 'toaster-like'. It's got much more sparkle and chime than the modern hi-gains. It gets very close to emulating the "lennon" tone. If I wanted to really match the "V81" type tone I could probably swap the middle and neck pickups around so the pickup with the 13k coil is in the middle, and disconnect that one. But I quite like it with the neck + middle wired together the way they are. I'm not really intending to convert it into a "beatles tribute" guitar or anything like that.

A really fun and inspiring guitar though - It's taking me a while to get the intonation dialed in because it can be a bit funky, but I'm getting there. I'm using 12-52 elixirs, which are exactly the gauges that Ric recommends for these, except that they recommend a 54 on the bottom. It's the bottom string I'm having the most trouble with, so it might be worth trying replacing that with a single 54 and seeing if that helps.

[iiipopes]

Actually, I would suggest the John Lennon mod: he simply detached the middle pickup from the wiring. I think you will find the bridge pickup has better tone that way by itself, as the older toasters (pre-5-knob) were only wound to @ 5.5 kohms' worth of wire to begin with, and you get rid of the impedance drop from two pickups in parallel to the same controls.

Just an additional thing to add to this thread:

I finally got around to measuring the DCR of the pickups. I'd measured the neck as 13k before adjusting the wiring. the readout of the two pickups in parallel (neck+middle) is now 4k, but I didn't think to measure that pickup while it was on its own. The bridge pickup is 5.9k. the fact that the combined DRC of the bridge + middle in parallel was about 2.95k makes me think the middle pickup's DCR is very close to that of the bridge

I'm surprised that hi-gains would have a DCR this low, but that makes the bridge pickup on its own with the .0047uf cap sound very very bright, detailed and 'toaster-like'. It's got much more sparkle and chime than the modern hi-gains. It gets very close to emulating the "lennon" tone. If I wanted to really match the "V81" type tone I could probably swap the middle and neck pickups around so the pickup with the 13k coil is in the middle, and disconnect that one. But I quite like it with the neck + middle wired together the way they are. I'm not really intending to convert it into a "beatles tribute" guitar or anything like that.

A really fun and inspiring guitar though - It's taking me a while to get the intonation dialed in because it can be a bit funky, but I'm getting there. I'm using 12-52 elixirs, which are exactly the gauges that Ric recommends for these, except that they recommend a 54 on the bottom. It's the bottom string I'm having the most trouble with, so it might be worth trying replacing that with a single 54 and seeing if that helps.

In the 1970's and 1980's, Rickenbacker went through a phase of trying to get maximum tonal contrast between the bridge and neck pickups. This meant they overwound the neck pickup and underwound the bridge pickup as you describe, with the resulting tone you describe.

Remember it is not just the gauges. The core diameter and geometry (hex or round), type and manner of windings, etc., can all contribute to a string's function (or dysfunction).

I suggest you try either the D'Addario EJ21 set, 12-52, or the DR Legends flatwound set, 12-52. I have tried the single 54, and it can get a little thumpy.

[Blomp]

In the 1970's and 1980's, Rickenbacker went through a phase of trying to get maximum tonal contrast between the bridge and neck pickups. This meant they overwound the neck pickup and underwound the bridge pickup as you describe, with the resulting tone you describe.

Remember it is not just the gauges. The core diameter and geometry (hex or round), type and manner of windings, etc., can all contribute to a string's function (or dysfunction).

I suggest you try either the D'Addario EJ21 set, 12-52, or the DR Legends flatwound set, 12-52. I have tried the single 54, and it can get a little thumpy.

Yeah I'm aware that it's normal for the neck pickup to be overwound, I'm just surprised by the extent to which my bridge and middle pickups are 'underwound' in relation to the neck. I really like this configuration, though. It almost makes me want to use a lower wind bridge pickup on my 330s (I'm gonna try just adding a .0047uf cap to them first).

I don't think a 54 would be too thumpy for me on a 320 since I tend to use a 52 as the low E on a lot of more regular scale length guitars and don't mind a bit of thump on the low strings.