Chin, what I'd like to see is the trussrod cavity in closeup, after you've removed the TRC. Perhaps a closeup shot of the front and back of the TRC would also be in order.
Another true indicator would be a shot of the BACK SIDE of the tailpiece, in good sharp focus. But to do this, you will have to unstring the guitar.
The tuners are quite common that old and in that condition, and were used by many manufacturers.
I'll agree with you guys that the pickup housings would be tougher to fake. But the tailpiece is dead easy--the backside is the giveaway.
Reissue 480?
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jingle_jangle
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jeff_ulmer
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You guys got me thinking about the set neck if it is a modified 480. Would it work if someone simply glued the neck into the existing space and didn't use any screws, then filled the holes before the refin?
Another posibility is that there are screws, just no plate; this could be determined easily by passing a small magnet over the part of the back of the body where the screws would normally be.
I would have been suspicious of motives if Chin's name had been "Chin Ho" (a character from Hawaii Five-O ... da-da-da-da-da, da, da-da-da-da-da ...).
Another posibility is that there are screws, just no plate; this could be determined easily by passing a small magnet over the part of the back of the body where the screws would normally be.
I would have been suspicious of motives if Chin's name had been "Chin Ho" (a character from Hawaii Five-O ... da-da-da-da-da, da, da-da-da-da-da ...).
It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing. - Seneca
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jingle_jangle
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Most probably the neck was glued and the joint filled without screws. A lot of these counterfeit "guitars" are built with no truss rods, like the old '50s and '60s Nationals and Supros.
Even if there are screws, a magnet is no sure indicator. Brass or Stainless steel screws will not respond to a magnet's pull.
Book 'em, Danno!!!
Even if there are screws, a magnet is no sure indicator. Brass or Stainless steel screws will not respond to a magnet's pull.
Book 'em, Danno!!!
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
At this stage there would seem to be too many inconsistencies to credit Chin's 480 as a modified real deal.
Sergio's comment is certainly a good one about the fret markers on the 24th fret. It does have the right body shape but I can't get past the set neck. Every 480 that I have seen has been a bolt on. The rosewood does look good but shouldn't it if it is native to Indonesia to start with.
The mounting evidence is tipping the scales in the direction of a copy - fret markers, pick guard, stamped info on back of peg head, control knobs, "anniverary label and set-neck all point to deception.
Sergio's comment is certainly a good one about the fret markers on the 24th fret. It does have the right body shape but I can't get past the set neck. Every 480 that I have seen has been a bolt on. The rosewood does look good but shouldn't it if it is native to Indonesia to start with.
The mounting evidence is tipping the scales in the direction of a copy - fret markers, pick guard, stamped info on back of peg head, control knobs, "anniverary label and set-neck all point to deception.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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meranti
Thank you all very much for your comments and I had no idea the flood of responses I was going to get. It shows that you guys are all a serious group of Ric owners. Please allow me to clarify this matter further.
Just as I was writing this another seller contacted me with another 480 series. (Paul you may be right of fakes being improved - just kidding!) I know it is too good to be true but please see below for more on this.
As to Paul’s responses, I honestly was not aware that it was a fake. Yes it is true that he told me that he took it to a house factory to be re-finished and I did not suspect. Most people do it this way as these workshops are the only ones available and all luthiers that I know here work from their house. I have seen plenty of Gibson and Fenders being faked here but the last I would expect is a Ric. One of the main reasons is that when they make fakes here they normally use new parts. In this case, the pickups look original including the Klusons and one of the first things I saw was the output plate which I thought was a unique way to identify a brand. These identification marks were there. Like I said, I really have very little knowledge of Ric guitars.
Your comment that it took me several days before I realized that the TRC was a fake. Unfortunately, it is correct and I only started to suspect after I read the comments here and then decided to take a closer look. I still have not had the time to check the inside of the body yet.
Is this a trial balloon for a series of Ric fakes? Answer is no. Let me assure you I am a serious guitar lover and I work and live in Indonesia. I am not Indonesian. My love for these instruments has taken me to visit whoever I know makes guitars here in my free time. I have seen many makers and I have also had a first hand tour of the large Yamaha guitar factory here. I was upfront in saying I was writing from Indonesia and I have had many similar responses when I mention that. I have had dealers refusing to even answer my mail when I make purchase inquiries (I mention upfront I am writing from Indonesia) but they always end up doing good transactions with me. So I hope that you understand this is not a trial for more fakes. I am just as curious as everyone here is to find out the truth.
As to this fake, I was on the phone last night to a well known dealer and I asked him whether he was aware of this guitar being flogged around. He answered yes and that he also knows the seller. According to him he had not seen the guitar but was told that the body and most of the hardware are original and rest were made by the second luthier that I mentioned in the earlier post (including neck and pick guard).
I will definitely be paying a visit to this luthier soon to find out who was behind this fake set neck Ric idea and the parts. If you like I will try to take some pics of his little workshop and the work that he does. This guy is pretty famous in Indonesia for his work. He owns no CNC machines or any fancy gadgets here and uses just basic tools with a few workmen in a very small workshop. If he admits to this fake I am going to tell him he is getting world famous!
Now to answer more of your questions
Jeff, I am afraid the TRC is a fake as the material to make the letters is really a sticker material with a bit of spongy top. I have tried to lift the sticker up and it can come up like a sticker.
The fingerboard appears to be a copy and is definitely not genuine. From the pic it does look good and in Indonesia I do know they have wood that looks pretty similar.
Paul, Jeff and Gary, I will try to get a shot of the truss rod and control cavities and the backside of the tailpiece. I will also check with this luthier on the neck construction. As this is Friday evening now, I may only be able to post the other pics on Monday morning.
Sergio, I really cannot make out the top two digits or alphabets even by looking up close. Sorry about that.
(To be continued)
Just as I was writing this another seller contacted me with another 480 series. (Paul you may be right of fakes being improved - just kidding!) I know it is too good to be true but please see below for more on this.
As to Paul’s responses, I honestly was not aware that it was a fake. Yes it is true that he told me that he took it to a house factory to be re-finished and I did not suspect. Most people do it this way as these workshops are the only ones available and all luthiers that I know here work from their house. I have seen plenty of Gibson and Fenders being faked here but the last I would expect is a Ric. One of the main reasons is that when they make fakes here they normally use new parts. In this case, the pickups look original including the Klusons and one of the first things I saw was the output plate which I thought was a unique way to identify a brand. These identification marks were there. Like I said, I really have very little knowledge of Ric guitars.
Your comment that it took me several days before I realized that the TRC was a fake. Unfortunately, it is correct and I only started to suspect after I read the comments here and then decided to take a closer look. I still have not had the time to check the inside of the body yet.
Is this a trial balloon for a series of Ric fakes? Answer is no. Let me assure you I am a serious guitar lover and I work and live in Indonesia. I am not Indonesian. My love for these instruments has taken me to visit whoever I know makes guitars here in my free time. I have seen many makers and I have also had a first hand tour of the large Yamaha guitar factory here. I was upfront in saying I was writing from Indonesia and I have had many similar responses when I mention that. I have had dealers refusing to even answer my mail when I make purchase inquiries (I mention upfront I am writing from Indonesia) but they always end up doing good transactions with me. So I hope that you understand this is not a trial for more fakes. I am just as curious as everyone here is to find out the truth.
As to this fake, I was on the phone last night to a well known dealer and I asked him whether he was aware of this guitar being flogged around. He answered yes and that he also knows the seller. According to him he had not seen the guitar but was told that the body and most of the hardware are original and rest were made by the second luthier that I mentioned in the earlier post (including neck and pick guard).
I will definitely be paying a visit to this luthier soon to find out who was behind this fake set neck Ric idea and the parts. If you like I will try to take some pics of his little workshop and the work that he does. This guy is pretty famous in Indonesia for his work. He owns no CNC machines or any fancy gadgets here and uses just basic tools with a few workmen in a very small workshop. If he admits to this fake I am going to tell him he is getting world famous!
Now to answer more of your questions
Jeff, I am afraid the TRC is a fake as the material to make the letters is really a sticker material with a bit of spongy top. I have tried to lift the sticker up and it can come up like a sticker.
The fingerboard appears to be a copy and is definitely not genuine. From the pic it does look good and in Indonesia I do know they have wood that looks pretty similar.
Paul, Jeff and Gary, I will try to get a shot of the truss rod and control cavities and the backside of the tailpiece. I will also check with this luthier on the neck construction. As this is Friday evening now, I may only be able to post the other pics on Monday morning.
Sergio, I really cannot make out the top two digits or alphabets even by looking up close. Sorry about that.
(To be continued)
Paul said:
... a magnet is no sure indicator. Brass or Stainless steel screws will not respond to a magnet's pull ...
Nor will aluminum. I was predicating my statement on the unstated assumption that an instrument that age would have nickel- or chrome-plated steel hardware which would be ferromagnetic.
By the way, there are some stainless steel alloys that are ferromagnetic; I don't remember the alloy numbers, but I have run into some SS parts made of them. I do know that when I was working on nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometers with superconducting magnets, all tools were made of special non-magnetic alloys, not stainless steel. Even a weakly ferromagnetic alloy is bad news near a 7 Tesla magnetic field!
... a magnet is no sure indicator. Brass or Stainless steel screws will not respond to a magnet's pull ...
Nor will aluminum. I was predicating my statement on the unstated assumption that an instrument that age would have nickel- or chrome-plated steel hardware which would be ferromagnetic.
By the way, there are some stainless steel alloys that are ferromagnetic; I don't remember the alloy numbers, but I have run into some SS parts made of them. I do know that when I was working on nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometers with superconducting magnets, all tools were made of special non-magnetic alloys, not stainless steel. Even a weakly ferromagnetic alloy is bad news near a 7 Tesla magnetic field!
It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing. - Seneca
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meranti
In my many years of living here, I have only come across two other Rics, one was at a guitar auction and another of which the pics are shown here. The solid body belonged to a local musician and he claimed that the top pick guard (elevated one) has been replaced as it broke. It was sold to a British friend of mine living in Malaysia. The semi belonged to a local collector and was sold to a famous local musician and subsequently used on recordings in Indonesia. Hope that these are not fakes too.
As I mentioned above, while writing this response another seller contacted me about another 480 for sale, a 483 to be correct (my knowledge has improved thanks to this site!). Surprisingly in the last few years I have only come across two Rics and suddenly within a space of one week I get to hear of two. I have dealt with this seller before and generally he is pretty accurate in his descriptions. He is offering me this but without the hard case but I do not have the guitar in hand to review it. He has sent me two pictures which I enclose here.
According to him, this 483 has been re-finished to dark blue. Further information he has provided (which I am translating from Indonesian) are:
- 24 fret rosewood fingerboard (“clean lac finish” which I presume to be lacquered).
- Dot inlays
- Original Kluson Deluxe Tuners
- Original RIC pickups
- Bolt on neck
- Original pots and knobs
- Original bridge/saddle
- Original Rick logo with small letters "Made in USA 480 Model"
- Serial number “ND 1979”
Modifications:
- Repainted to dark blue color.
- According to seller, there were actually 5 knobs but has been modified to 4 knobs. (That is what he claims but from what I see in the pic of a 483 it has only 4 knobs. There appears to be a hole on the pickguard where the 5th knob was "supposed" to be).
Do you think this is the genuine stuff?
I know I have been writing a lot here and hope that you don’t mind. I know this is my first thread and hope that you will find this interesting. Many many thanks.
Regards,
Chin Hon
PS. By the way wasn’t Chin Ho one of the good guys in the series and got killed in one of the episodes?
A pic of a couple of double necks from my humble collection. Sorry that they are not Rics.
As I mentioned above, while writing this response another seller contacted me about another 480 for sale, a 483 to be correct (my knowledge has improved thanks to this site!). Surprisingly in the last few years I have only come across two Rics and suddenly within a space of one week I get to hear of two. I have dealt with this seller before and generally he is pretty accurate in his descriptions. He is offering me this but without the hard case but I do not have the guitar in hand to review it. He has sent me two pictures which I enclose here.
According to him, this 483 has been re-finished to dark blue. Further information he has provided (which I am translating from Indonesian) are:
- 24 fret rosewood fingerboard (“clean lac finish” which I presume to be lacquered).
- Dot inlays
- Original Kluson Deluxe Tuners
- Original RIC pickups
- Bolt on neck
- Original pots and knobs
- Original bridge/saddle
- Original Rick logo with small letters "Made in USA 480 Model"
- Serial number “ND 1979”
Modifications:
- Repainted to dark blue color.
- According to seller, there were actually 5 knobs but has been modified to 4 knobs. (That is what he claims but from what I see in the pic of a 483 it has only 4 knobs. There appears to be a hole on the pickguard where the 5th knob was "supposed" to be).
Do you think this is the genuine stuff?
I know I have been writing a lot here and hope that you don’t mind. I know this is my first thread and hope that you will find this interesting. Many many thanks.
Regards,
Chin Hon
PS. By the way wasn’t Chin Ho one of the good guys in the series and got killed in one of the episodes?
A pic of a couple of double necks from my humble collection. Sorry that they are not Rics.
Chin: Your detailed responses are terrific. thanks again for your willingess to leave no stone unturned.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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jingle_jangle
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Chin, thank you for being so forthcoming in response to my answers. I may have been hasty in my judgment of the "trial balloon" issue. Please keep the information and especially the pictures coming.
Do you have a website where your collection can be viewed in its entirety? From what I can see, it is far from "humble"!
Do you have a website where your collection can be viewed in its entirety? From what I can see, it is far from "humble"!
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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tony_carey
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Thankyou Chin, this is one of the most interesting threads that I have read...but I suppose that we all have a little 'Hercule Poirot' in us. Keep the detective work up, as I am sure that this is enlightening to a lot of us.
The 483 is looking a lot more like it, although the hole in the scratch plate is interesting.
The 483 is looking a lot more like it, although the hole in the scratch plate is interesting.
'Rickenbacker'...what a name! After all these years, it still thrills me.
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meranti
Dear All,
I am pleased to provide more information here. Yesterday, I made a trip to visit the 2nd luthier (Tirta) that I mentioned in the earlier post. Unfortunately, I could not get to see him as I was told he was resting. However, I did get to see his assistant who was kind enough to answer my questions. I showed him the guitar and he told me that he had worked for this luthier for the last 5 years and does not recall this model ever being made. He said that he would know as he was in-charge of the finishing and the electronics. He was also kind to show me around the area of the workshop (pics below). If this luthier is not the one behind it that perhaps it could be other one then? I will try to pay a visit to this other luthier soon. I will still make a trip back to talk to Tirta as there is always a possibility this was made even earlier.
Back to the guitar. To answer the questions, I have taken the necessary pics for your comments. Please note I have no idea of the actual or real construction looks like and can only make comments where I can.
First is the tailpiece. I enclose both the front pic and the back.
Next is a pic of the truss rod area.
Next is a pic of the pickup cavity area. If you look carefully at the extension of the neck it appears to be extending to the pickup cavities which tend to make me beleive that both body and neck are not original? The whole guitar has been painted black and every part is covered in black paint.
To be continued below.
I am pleased to provide more information here. Yesterday, I made a trip to visit the 2nd luthier (Tirta) that I mentioned in the earlier post. Unfortunately, I could not get to see him as I was told he was resting. However, I did get to see his assistant who was kind enough to answer my questions. I showed him the guitar and he told me that he had worked for this luthier for the last 5 years and does not recall this model ever being made. He said that he would know as he was in-charge of the finishing and the electronics. He was also kind to show me around the area of the workshop (pics below). If this luthier is not the one behind it that perhaps it could be other one then? I will try to pay a visit to this other luthier soon. I will still make a trip back to talk to Tirta as there is always a possibility this was made even earlier.
Back to the guitar. To answer the questions, I have taken the necessary pics for your comments. Please note I have no idea of the actual or real construction looks like and can only make comments where I can.
First is the tailpiece. I enclose both the front pic and the back.
Next is a pic of the truss rod area.
Next is a pic of the pickup cavity area. If you look carefully at the extension of the neck it appears to be extending to the pickup cavities which tend to make me beleive that both body and neck are not original? The whole guitar has been painted black and every part is covered in black paint.
To be continued below.
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tony_carey
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meranti