Does anyone know when RIC changed the binding on the back of the 360 from checkerboard to white?
And for those of you with a newer 360 (with the white binding): what is the thickness of the binding?
Thanks.
Checkerboard binding on the 360
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adam_swapp
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Checkerboard binding on the 360
You want to put that where?
Don't know those numbers off the top of my head, but I can tell you that the binding on my 370/12 is not as thick (when looking at the back of the guitar directly) as the checkerboard binding on my 380L or on my 381v69. My guess is that you'd have to do a bit of routing in order to make it work. Of course, based on your 610 restoration, I don't think that's anything you can't handle, Adam.
Again, I'm working from memory, but I believe checkerboard binding is a multilayer application. First the checkerboard goes on, then another strip of white binding goes on top of that. Then there's the issue of "matching" the two ends of the binding so that you don't end up with two checks of the same colour side by side. It looks quite tricky.
Again, I'm working from memory, but I believe checkerboard binding is a multilayer application. First the checkerboard goes on, then another strip of white binding goes on top of that. Then there's the issue of "matching" the two ends of the binding so that you don't end up with two checks of the same colour side by side. It looks quite tricky.
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adam_swapp
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John,
I suspect that you're right about the thickness, but I wanted to make sure. I was considering the renovation of a newer 360, but I don't think it's worth the time, effort, and/or cost to make/buy tooling to rout a new channel for wider binding. It's an aggressive asking price as is for a common guitar that needs a refin and some repair just to get it to the same level as an average used instrument. Routing a new channel is far beyond the tipping point.
BTW, RIC didn't always get the "matching" right, either:
I suspect that you're right about the thickness, but I wanted to make sure. I was considering the renovation of a newer 360, but I don't think it's worth the time, effort, and/or cost to make/buy tooling to rout a new channel for wider binding. It's an aggressive asking price as is for a common guitar that needs a refin and some repair just to get it to the same level as an average used instrument. Routing a new channel is far beyond the tipping point.
BTW, RIC didn't always get the "matching" right, either:
You want to put that where?
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dale_fortune
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dale_fortune
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Yes the bodies were channeled on the table shaper for 2 binding slots. If memory serves me well the checkered was 1/8inch and the white was 1/4inch. 1st the checkered was applied with acetone, then before it was completely dry and set up the white binding was attached with acetone, left to dry over night before we used scraper blades to level it by hand. There are so many steps that are done by hand in the construction of Rick's, this could be the only hand crafted Electric Guitar left in the world.
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jingle_jangle
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Exactly, Dale.
Please let me refer interested partied in this "hand crafted" discussion, to my recent post on the thread "Another REPLICA on eBay"--it's specifically on mass-assembled vs. handbuilt guitars.
Please let me refer interested partied in this "hand crafted" discussion, to my recent post on the thread "Another REPLICA on eBay"--it's specifically on mass-assembled vs. handbuilt guitars.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Dale,
Maybe different guys were training whoever put the binding on; Kyle Reneau taught me how to do it the first week I worked there in June, '72. It was awkward and Very messy, getting all the in-house made binding paste we made up out of acetone in a coffee can, with short scraps of white binding snip offs mixed in till it dissolved and got gooey.Then brushed into the routed grooves with flux paste brush, and finally getting the glue on both pieces of binding simultaneously, and using a big ball of heavy waxed string to wrap around the body to hold down the binding.Typically we'd let the binding set up and dry overnight before scraping the outer white section till it was flush with the bare wood edge of the body.The really fun part was at the end of the day, after having done a couple dozen body halves[I'm referring here to 4001 bodies]and your hands would be caked with all this lovely white plastic residue that only an acetone bath and a brush could get off.And if you had any cuts on your fingers....Yeow!!!Am I bringing back memories, Dale?Thankfully, for the guys who do that job at Rick now, some thoughtful person decided to make some special jigs to hold the bodies in while the binding is applied.
Maybe different guys were training whoever put the binding on; Kyle Reneau taught me how to do it the first week I worked there in June, '72. It was awkward and Very messy, getting all the in-house made binding paste we made up out of acetone in a coffee can, with short scraps of white binding snip offs mixed in till it dissolved and got gooey.Then brushed into the routed grooves with flux paste brush, and finally getting the glue on both pieces of binding simultaneously, and using a big ball of heavy waxed string to wrap around the body to hold down the binding.Typically we'd let the binding set up and dry overnight before scraping the outer white section till it was flush with the bare wood edge of the body.The really fun part was at the end of the day, after having done a couple dozen body halves[I'm referring here to 4001 bodies]and your hands would be caked with all this lovely white plastic residue that only an acetone bath and a brush could get off.And if you had any cuts on your fingers....Yeow!!!Am I bringing back memories, Dale?Thankfully, for the guys who do that job at Rick now, some thoughtful person decided to make some special jigs to hold the bodies in while the binding is applied.
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dale_fortune
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Wow, how long did you work at Electro? We must have just missed each other. Did you know Jeff Healy? I know you had to of known Terry Deason,ex Fender employee that came over to Rick. How about Mike Allen or Paul Bennett? The turn over rate was very high. I got the drummer in our band a job there in 73, he lasted 3 days. Quit after doing body binding for 2 of those 3 days. Good to hear from you Don and where are you now?
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jingle_jangle
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This is oral history, guys...and of immense interest to us "outsiders"!
Keep it comin'
Keep it comin'
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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dale_fortune
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History at Rick: This was a great memorable time of my life. I think back on the 1st day I walked into the wood shop, Dick Burke the MGR. had me cleaning out the back room where some old 50's 800 series guitars were left behind and I had to cut some of them up on the band saw. They were junk in others eyes. Man I wanted to keep them so bad, only 1 of them survived. It was a dbl.pick-up
model with a blonde finish and 2 toggle switches and 1 Vol./Tone control. 1 H.S. and 1 toaster p-up
Then there was the time an early 60's 4000S came in for repair, severe neck crack, unfixable to be warranteed, so back to the band saw. I almost cried, but I did get to keep the peg head that I still have to this day. I was a young lad and very willing to learn as much as I could in those days.
model with a blonde finish and 2 toggle switches and 1 Vol./Tone control. 1 H.S. and 1 toaster p-up
Then there was the time an early 60's 4000S came in for repair, severe neck crack, unfixable to be warranteed, so back to the band saw. I almost cried, but I did get to keep the peg head that I still have to this day. I was a young lad and very willing to learn as much as I could in those days.
Thanks Dale and Don for the great info on applying the checkerboard binding. It's even more difficult than I'd imagined. I'll admire it even more from now on. If Mr. Hall ever did implement a checkerboard binding option for the masses at a time when I worked in the Ric factory, I think I'd lead a workshop revolt.
Paul, I've read the posts you've referred to, and you're beginning to remind me very much of John Ruskin! He was a man of letters in the Victorian period who argued for something called the "moral aesthetic" at a time when industrialism was very much on the rise. Basically, he said that workers should be allowed to mould, build, and create individual items (even if they come out flawed) instead of being forced to stamp, pull levers, and generally reduce themselves to mindless drones. He encouraged people to seek out those items that adhered to the moral aesthetic and reject those that were perfectly formed through the use of inhumane, repetitive processes. It's a pretty righteous argument even now.
Again, thanks Dale and Don.
Paul, I've read the posts you've referred to, and you're beginning to remind me very much of John Ruskin! He was a man of letters in the Victorian period who argued for something called the "moral aesthetic" at a time when industrialism was very much on the rise. Basically, he said that workers should be allowed to mould, build, and create individual items (even if they come out flawed) instead of being forced to stamp, pull levers, and generally reduce themselves to mindless drones. He encouraged people to seek out those items that adhered to the moral aesthetic and reject those that were perfectly formed through the use of inhumane, repetitive processes. It's a pretty righteous argument even now.
Again, thanks Dale and Don.
Dale;
I was there for what turned out to be an extended summer vacation, though the original plan was to have been in So. Cal. much longer. I started working at Electro String in mid June, and stayed till around early Oct.You must have started right after I left, cause I'm sure I would have remembered someone with the last name, "Fortune".I've always been good with names that way.I always felt like, Wow, do you realize Where you get to work?And, at a time when crushed pearl inlay and checked binding were still commonplace.My first week or so was spent learning binding, with Burke and Kyle Reneau.Right after that, Dick had another new job; making up about 1000 sets of truss rods for 4001 basses from raw materials.Following that was
learning to cut out and shape the bass bodies on the band saw and big edge sander.I also logged some time on the "ironing board stroke sander", as well as using the big overhead pin router to cut inlay slots in fingerboards, as well as rout the control access spots in bass bodies.Then there was doing glue ups of neck laminations on the paddlewheel clamping rack,and glueing wings on neck blanks.I also band sawed out pickguards and drilled, and routed them to shape.To this day,when I make repro guards, I do them the same way we used to there.The guys I worked closely with there were Kyle, his brother,Greg, Kent Smith,Terry Deason,Burke, Robert"Birch"Zeimer,Brian Carman, Gary Manning, Russ Chapman.Ward Deatons' son also came in on occcasion.Remember at break time the truck that came around with food?Fabulous greasy burgers....
BTW, Dale, I'm in the Twin Cities, where I was originally from, though I was born in Santa Ana in '52 while my dad was in the Korean war.
I was there for what turned out to be an extended summer vacation, though the original plan was to have been in So. Cal. much longer. I started working at Electro String in mid June, and stayed till around early Oct.You must have started right after I left, cause I'm sure I would have remembered someone with the last name, "Fortune".I've always been good with names that way.I always felt like, Wow, do you realize Where you get to work?And, at a time when crushed pearl inlay and checked binding were still commonplace.My first week or so was spent learning binding, with Burke and Kyle Reneau.Right after that, Dick had another new job; making up about 1000 sets of truss rods for 4001 basses from raw materials.Following that was
learning to cut out and shape the bass bodies on the band saw and big edge sander.I also logged some time on the "ironing board stroke sander", as well as using the big overhead pin router to cut inlay slots in fingerboards, as well as rout the control access spots in bass bodies.Then there was doing glue ups of neck laminations on the paddlewheel clamping rack,and glueing wings on neck blanks.I also band sawed out pickguards and drilled, and routed them to shape.To this day,when I make repro guards, I do them the same way we used to there.The guys I worked closely with there were Kyle, his brother,Greg, Kent Smith,Terry Deason,Burke, Robert"Birch"Zeimer,Brian Carman, Gary Manning, Russ Chapman.Ward Deatons' son also came in on occcasion.Remember at break time the truck that came around with food?Fabulous greasy burgers....
BTW, Dale, I'm in the Twin Cities, where I was originally from, though I was born in Santa Ana in '52 while my dad was in the Korean war.
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jingle_jangle
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John, I've Read Ruskin and he's probably the spiritual progenitor of Mr. Pye. But some of his views amount to socialism and whenever amateur socialists get together (come to think of it, there's no other kind...) trouble brews.
And they all argue too much for my taste.
Socialism and social reform of the type which Ruskin advocated are historically bound up with the Arts and Crafts movement, even to this day. You can see echoes of it in the So Cal A + C of the Greene Brothers, Rudolf Schindler, and Frank Lloyd Wright, both stylistically and philosophically, and in Europe in the Bauhaus tradition, which re-migrated and got absorbed into our capitalistic society via Moholy Nagy and the New Institute of Design at IIT. I studied at the U of I in the 60s with a number of IIT/New Institute exiles (Robert Nickle and Richard Koppe among them).
The history and cross-pollenization is an amazing trek through the history of the last 150 years.
But please don't cast my views in any antique light. I'm not trying to "raise the worker up" or any such nonsense...I'm keenly interested in the products of the labor of craftsmen and in keeping the craft tradition alive, though it be hidden within a mass-produced shell.
And they all argue too much for my taste.
Socialism and social reform of the type which Ruskin advocated are historically bound up with the Arts and Crafts movement, even to this day. You can see echoes of it in the So Cal A + C of the Greene Brothers, Rudolf Schindler, and Frank Lloyd Wright, both stylistically and philosophically, and in Europe in the Bauhaus tradition, which re-migrated and got absorbed into our capitalistic society via Moholy Nagy and the New Institute of Design at IIT. I studied at the U of I in the 60s with a number of IIT/New Institute exiles (Robert Nickle and Richard Koppe among them).
The history and cross-pollenization is an amazing trek through the history of the last 150 years.
But please don't cast my views in any antique light. I'm not trying to "raise the worker up" or any such nonsense...I'm keenly interested in the products of the labor of craftsmen and in keeping the craft tradition alive, though it be hidden within a mass-produced shell.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut