"B" String Tuning Problem - 1967 / 360

mikestop · Post by **mikestop** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:25 am

I'm looking for some ideas on why I'm unable to get the B string to be in tune at different positions on the neck. If I tune it perfectly to an E chord at the first position, then go to an A chord on the second fret, the string goes SHARP. If I then play a bar chord- "G" 3rd fret or an "A" 5th fret etc... the string goes FLAT. Then again if I pay a "C" bar chord 3rd position or a "D" chord 5th position the string then goes SHARP. I've set the intonation and all other strings are fine all the way up the neck! Any ideas? Thanks guys!!!
Mike..

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:17 am

...I would change strings, you may have a bad one. It's happened to me before.

Cole

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:18 am

Try some Pyrimaids or Rickenbacker brand strings. You can't go wrong with those.

Cole

headbanger · Post by **headbanger** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:08 am

Try a lighter gauge string for the B, it can help. I presume you're out of adjustment? Then moving the bridge is the best option.

mikestop · Post by **mikestop** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:19 am

Thanks Cole. I have tried 3 new sets of strings in the last 3-4 weeks - Dean Markley "BLUE STEEL" & "SLP" and now have D'addarios on it. All 10/46's. Have exact same problem with all three brands. The SLP's are what I had been using on this Ric for 20-25 years with out this problem. It would tune perfectly and hold for what seemed like forever! I just noticed the same problem with the high E string, it goes SHARP on the second fret then plays FLAT on the 5th fret. The E isn't quite as bad as the B string. I've just recently started playing this guitar again after it having sat in it's case, in my closet for for the last 6-7 years. The only thing done to it was the nut became loose, but was re-glued in it's exact same spot and is very tight and secure (no movement). Thanks!
Mike.

loverickbass · Post by **loverickbass** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:09 am

...maybe a truss rod adjustment needed? Check and see if the strings are hitting the frets somewhere on the neck. I dun know, I would just go over the simple stuff first before I took her in to a Luther.

Cole

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:43 am

Mike Stoppiello observes: "bar chord ... "A" 5th fret ... the string goes FLAT" and {""C" bar chord 3rd position the string then goes SHARP."}

Are you saying the string goes both sharp and flat at the same fret? Tres bizarre.

Three suggestions:
- Clean your nut slots. Fold a piece of sandpaper (or use a nut file if you have it) and run it through the slots a couple of times. You're not trying to enlarge or deepen the slot - you just want to smooth it. Rub in a little pencil lead, then put the string back in.
- Review your string winding technique. You don't want the strings to slip on the tuning post. See this.
- Review your tuning procedure. Tune with the attack pitch, not with the pitch to which the string settles.

Or you could consider the situation hopeless and sell the guitar to me.

mikestop · Post by **mikestop** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:46 am

Tres bizarre indeed Adam. It's not my string winding, or tuning procedure as I've never had this problem with this Ric or any guitars I've owned over the years, been at it for 35 years. The strings are holding pitch and not slipping. Will try cleaning out the nut. Just can't understand why when playing an "A" 2nd position, "C" 3rd, "D"5th etc... I have tune the B string down a bit to be in tune. Then have to bring it's pitch UP a bit when playing "E"1st pos., bar chords "G"3rd pos., "A"5th etc... How could the same string sound both, Sharp & Flat at the same fret with different chords. The intonation at the 12th fret on all strings is right on. Does anyone know a GOOD Luthier or guitar guy in the Jersey Shore area? Hopefully it wont come to that!!!
Thanks again!!

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:18 pm

Mike, I'm not a luthier, but one thing that comes to my mind is the crown of the frets. If the frets have wear, and I assume they do on such an older guitar, the crown may be uneven, even subtly so. The "ridge line" (the uppermost part of the fret that contacts the string might microscopically look something like this:

___|
___|
__|
___|
____|
___|
___|
...
(vertical lines = crown of fret, horizontal lines are just place holders)

The non-linearity of the crown could explain the sharp/flat on the same string situation.

Maybe one of the luthiers-in-residence can comment on this hypothesis.

ibmindless · Post by **ibmindless** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:52 pm

If you put on a new gauge of string, your intonation is apt to change. How are you checking that the intonation is OK?

I just changed the intonation on my guitar this morning. The open G string and the 12th fret harmonic were OK, but when fretting the octave on the 12th fret, the tone was sharp --- which means the string is too short (of course the opposite is true for a flat tone). Therefore I adjusted the saddle to lengthen the string. This was a trial & error process, but eventually I got everything properly set. I used my ear and an Intellitouch tuner.

Oh, and be sure you're not exerting too much pressure when you fret the string when checking the intonation. You might cause it to go sharp.

mikestop · Post by **mikestop** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:03 am

Thanks Mark. I adjusted the intonation with each new set of strings I've tried with a tuner, 12th harmonic & octave. I have also tried fretting the chords and the intonation adjustment with less pressure, no difference. Could it be a very slight twist in the neck that's causing the B string problem and to a lesser degree the high E string?

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:42 am

Mike: Just curious, what is age and the model of your guitar?

Have you tried fretting the B string at the 3rd fret with your ring finger and then, while holding this position, hammering on gently with your index finger on the first fret to see if you can raise the pitch. I suspect that some of your issues are associated with the nut.

mikestop · Post by **mikestop** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:21 am

Hi Peter. The guitar is a March,1967 360/12 Mapleglow. I had a 6 string nut installed when I bought it in 1977. The nut recently came loose and was re-glued in what I think is the exact same spot. It is tight and not shifting at all. If I try the fretting test you mention above and the pitch goes up, would that mean the nut is a little high?? This Ric got a lot of use on the road from '77 thru '87 and I never had a problem. It tuned perfectly all the way up & down the neck! Thanks for the advice Peter & everyone!!
Mike..

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:03 am

Yes Mike the slot may be a tad high such that the extra pressure makes the string go sharp.

adam_swapp · Post by **adam_swapp** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:15 am

Wouldn't the extra pressure make any string go sharp (proper nut relief or not)? The way I see it, if you fret the string at the 3rd fret, the string goes from the bridge to your finger to the nut. If you also fret it at the 1st fret, it is no longer going directly from the 3rd fret to the nut. It is now going from the 3rd fret to the 1st fret to the nut. This increases the effective length of the string, which would always rsaise the pitch, would it not?