Harmony Wheel and Mode Question for bass

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:52 am

Very well put, Kevin. Bass is more melodic than most people realize.

Charly, definitely play along to the iPod. I played along to vinyl records all the time for years and years and got a lot out of it.

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:12 am

Playing along with recordings is definitely beneficial, & way easier to do now than it ever was.

Also, leaving spaces is very important. I've gotten compliments on knowing when not to play, but never when I tried to jam in as many notes as possible.
Sometimes something works at practice at a lower volume, but at a gig comes off as too busy, so knowing when to just keep it simple is an art of it's own, one that I try to concentrate on more and more.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:46 am

I got rhythm and style galore, I'm just looking to play the right notes.
What I meant to say earlier was, I can't tell where the progression is going. THAT is my problem. I keep having to find it.

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:26 pm

Thanks Jason.
And Kevin, I agree with both of your last two posts 100%.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:43 pm

We did People Get Ready today while the offering was being collected, and I put the switch up on the 4004, and played my right hand about two inches behind my left. What a beautiful ROUND full tone, to go with that melody! That song is all about phrasing.

For those that haven't been following my saga, I now play through an SVT CLassic to a 4x10. Picked up the cii about 3 weeks ago.

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:07 pm

"I can't tell where the progression is going"

A good song SHOULD throw you off until you know the changes.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:18 pm

So, I'm supposed to be an idiot? Whew!!! {:^)

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Thank you for pushing this thread Charly, and for the answers from you guys who really know what you are doing. Man, do I have alot to learn!!! I still have a hard time spitting out what I think must be dumb questions in such a forum like this (hey, I'm just a software guy who is really enjoying playing in my basement, but I have aspirations baby!). I am really to the point now where I need much more help from places like this or private lessons.

When I do start lessons again (about ready now), I think I'll print this thread out, take it to my teacher, and say "let's spend the next month going over this so I can understand it!"

-Greg

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:01 pm

That's the toughest part, wording the question so someone else has a clue what you mean!! I will stand by the harmony wheel and the Bass Logic book. Together they have brought me further in a shorter time than any of the other books in the ever growing pile! I keep thinking I'm a dolt as I look at those other books, as they teach how-to stuff but not very heavy on the why. I must know why before it sinks in.

Now that I know why there are modes, I realize as a bassist, it is not critical that I can play all the mode scales, etc.. Give me the changes, and you'll get a nice bass line!

Anyway Greg, I'm glad others are getting something out of the discussion. I wish I had the passion for music Jdog and JB have when I was younger. I didn't play for twenty years after I got out of the Navy, too busy raising a family.

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:25 pm

I guess we have more than just a bass in common Charly. Never too old to learn, and at 43 I am just getting started. It's been a year now since I really started taking this seriously. Somebody said at that time that it will take two years to really feel like I know what I'm doing (if even then). I feel like I am on track, and so far it's been alot of fun. These kind of details are important to pay attention to for me now, and I'm glad to be a part of such a knowledgeable group.

If anybody ever has any questions about VoIP, maybe I can return the favor sometime

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:06 am

When I do start lessons again ... I think I'll print this thread out, take it to my teacher, and say "let's spend the next month going over this so I can understand it!"

I may have told this story before so please forgive me.
When I decided to take up music again (after a 30 year absence) I contacted a local teacher. His tastes and mine were almost polar opposites and I didn't think it was going to work out at all.
During the very first lesson, he started whipping out tons of theory and modes on me and I was completely lost. At the next lesson, I asked the guy to please do me a favor and give me doses of theory in small bites and to relate it to what we happen to be covering at the time.
Everything clicked from that point on and he was the greatest music teacher one could hope for.

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:18 am

That's a good tip Mark.

When I started this endeavor a year ago, I took lessons for 3 months from a local guy. I had no idea about music theory and he thought it was important to start down that path. I am the type of guy that feels that if I am dealing with somebody who knows alot more then me about a subject, I will totally trust their judgement (initially anyways) and follow their lead, assuming that they have seen success by their methods before, so I thought that was fine, but there was just so much to learn that after the 3 months I told him that I just need to stop the lessons and catch up with all he was telling me. So we made up a list of things that I should work on myself before starting up again. I felt that as long as I would keep at it (sometimes the pressure of a coming lesson will motivate one to practice), this would be a fine approach.

Well, it has been fine and I have been able to keep moving along and feeling like I have solid goals to achieve (see the "tips for (novice) jazz bassist" thread that JD has helped me out with). I am just about to the point now where I feel like I have developed a good enough understanding of things to start with lessons again. The things I really just wanted to feel good about were fret board layout and different types of scales (seems simple enough, but it's taken me a year to get it!). Also along the way, just learning songs and developing enough technique to be dangerous, but hopefully not so much as to develop really bad habits.

So now, I am debating whether to go back to this same guy or not. He is advertised as a teacher of "beginning bass", and he's really a guitar player. I am thinking of going to a true bassist (if that matters...opinions?), and somebody with a jazz background, but somebody who can mix theory with other things a little more than the last guy.

I am afraid that once I mention jazz, direction will head into deep theory even more since it's obviously very important to be a good jazz bassist. On the other hand, I do not want to just go and work on songs or things that I could do at home just as easily. So a teacher that understands these things would be great.

If I advertised what I was looking for to move forward now, it would be this:

1) Concentrate on knowing how to move around between roots and chords, in an improvisational manner. This seems like what Charly was asking about. Right now I pick a scale and root and while I can sit and play that scale (in all kinds of order) with the same root for hours (weird huh?), I feel paralyzed when I think about moving around from there. The most I'll do is a I-IV-V, but really with the same scale type each time. There, I said it out loud.

2) Improve anything I can technique-wise.

3) Develop good muting techniques.

Any comments on moving forward here are always appreciated!

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:51 am

An excellent topic, theory is my shortcoming as well.
And as Mark mentioned, a good teacher tailors the lesson to the pupil.
This is the problem I had with theory when I was young: it was all taught as a set lesson so I got very little out of it.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:01 pm

My jazz bud at work used a new term on me that might be the breakthrough I have been looking for!

He used a term I have NEVER heard before. He said "chord scales". THAT is how you know where it's going. Now I have to find some info on chord scales!! I will post any results.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:04 pm

Wow that didn't take long. I still need to read it.

http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/chord-scale.html

I showed this page to my jazz bud, and he said EXACTLY, and he liked the manner of presentation. He said, now grab a fake book, utilizing the chord scale, look at some songs.a nd you will start to see patterns. Once you see the patterns, you will KNOW where things are going!!

For instance, the idea that if you see two major chords one after the other and a whole step apart, (D-E), they will be the IV and the V, as that relationship only exists in the IV V change.....