Harmony Wheel and Mode Question for bass

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:51 am

I just received this wonderful little tool called the harmony wheel from: http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/harwheel.html

It is quite a nice visual tool for figuring this stuff out.

I am also studying a book called Fretboard Logic for Bass.

Between the two of them, some holes in my knowledge of theory are being filled.

However, it also brings up questions.........

Here's one: What does a bass player do with the differing modes? If it is still in the same key, using the same notes as the major scale, just starting and ending on different notes, how does it affect what I should play?

Please note, these may seem like dumb questions, but that is why they are holes!

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:34 am

Charly, can you give a specific example? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking, and don't want to answer incorrectly.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:41 am

Ok, You have the major scale (Ionian). Now, if changes to Mixolydian, how does that affect what I play? Is a I IV V chord progession affected by the mode,or vice versa? Why do I want to change the mode anyway? And how do I know that it has changed, it's all the same notes?

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:34 am

Okay, let's use C as an example.

C Ionian is C D E F G A B C. I is major (C E G), IV is major (F A C), V is major (G B D).

C Mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb C. I is major (C E G), IV is major (F A C), but now v is minor, hence the small letter v (G Bb D).

If you want to keep the key of C, but play in Mixolydian, try G Mixolydian. G A B C D E Fnatural G. Again, I is M, IV is M, v is m (D F A as opposed to D F# A which is D major, which is found in G Ionian, or G major).

Another way to look at it (CAPS are Major, small letters are minor, and a "*" denotes diminished)...

Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii*
or, C d- e- F G a- b*

Dorian: i ii III IV v vi* VII
or, d- e- F G a- b* C

Phrygian: i II III iv v* VI vii
or, e- F G a- b* C d-

Lydian:
Mixolydian:
Aeolian:
Locrian (weird!!!):
I'll let Biscuti take it from here. Go, theory man!

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:12 am

Well, I can't make it through that explanation.

"C Mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb C. I is major (C E G), IV is major (F A C), but now v is minor, hence the small letter v (G Bb D).

If you want to keep the key of C, but play in Mixolydian, try G Mixolydian."

How can you have a flat in a c major scale? See, the little theory I remember gets in the way of understanding what the heck you are talking about! Why can I try G? It's a different key?

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:48 am

Mixolydian is not major. Only Ionian is major.

It's deceptive because C Mixolydian has a major chord on I. But that doesn't make the whole scale major. The Bb is the fly in the ointment in this case.

Similarly, C Lydian (based on key of G, one sharp which is F#) has a major chord on I,
but C D E F# G A B C is not a major scale either. It's a Lydian scale, which is what makes it a mode.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:38 pm

I just had a talk with a lead player, and some of it cleared up. For a set of chord changes, he can find a mode that fits the whole set of changes, and vamp in that mode without fear of "blowing" it.

How does that affect what the bass is doing?

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:32 pm

That's a complex question Charly. It would really depend on the chord progression to determine if the bass has to change anything it does.

If the guitarist wants to solo in fancy modes, that's fine with him - but i'd say it probably won't affect what the bass is doing, unless you're playing Jaco style.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:47 pm

That's what I thought John. Thanks! I suppose knowing modes could help with passing tones and such for variety, but not necessary for a bass player, at least, not so much!

In the fretboard logic book, which is also helping tons, it shows 1st, 2nd and third inversions for chords. I know what an inversion is, but I need to memorize the 2nd and third inversion patterns? Piano players love inversions, I throw them in when they make sense, but memorizing a third inversion pattern at the 12 th fret? Why?

PS - You both are heroes in my book. I don't know too many people with the patience to weed though my crazy questions!!!

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:17 am

Not sure if I know what you're saying there, but shouldn't a "pattern" be the same at every fret? Why would it change at the 12th fret? Do you mean an arpeggio pattern?

For instance, say the chord you're playing over is F/A (That's an F chord with an A in the bass), and you want to play the broken arpeggio of that. The pattern you would play would be 12th fret of the A string (A), 15th fret of the A string (C), and 15th fret of the D string (F).

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:01 am

Here's what they show for a 4 string form for A

A C# E A with A starting on the first string 2nd fret, C# 4th fret 2nd string,E on the 3rd string 2nd fret,and A on the 4th string 2nd fret.

Then they show first inversion, shown starting at the 6th fret with C# being first string 8th fret

then 2nd inversion starting at the 9th fret, with E being first string 12th fret.

firstbassman · Post by **firstbassman** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:31 pm

This topic has also recently gone on for a little while over at the F---er forum.

Charly, don't think of 'Mix' as a major scale. (ie: "How can you have a flat in a major scale.) Think of it as a new scale. It just so happens to be almost just like the major scale, except with a flattened seventh.

Also, I wouldn't focus on I - IV - Vmin.

A gazillion rock songs in 'Mix' are based on I - bVII - IV. Think of "Gloria" by Them: E - D - A. "Takin' Care of Business:" C - Bb - F. Tons of them.
During most of the song, to keep the groove, I'm just hitting the root with a little accent here and there so it doesn't matter what mode or scale or whatever the song is in.
If we're vamping over that change or if I'm doing a little solo I just make sure to focus on the pattern of the changes (it makes an easy "L" shape - just like a normal I-IV-V) and I keep the tones within a pentatonic scale. Fewer worries that way.
My motto is always - good tone, keep the groove going and keep it simple.

Hope that helps a little.

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:41 pm

Excellent Mark. You just became 4th in command here of my little theory nation (J Dog, Biscuit Boy, and Long Live King Peter).

Just remember, everybody, these mode things aren't really that exciting or rewarding in the end. Just think TONIC TONIC TONIC and whatever notes in that key sound right, are right.

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:44 pm

Well, I certainly agree with that, but it doesn't give me many chops when we get together!

Edit: I figured that is what I am missing when jamming. I can't tell where the change is going. I can feel it coming but have no clue as to where it's going without a chord chart in front of me.

And since I dont gig out, I don't have much of a catalog of songs I have down all the way through! I will have to "play along" with my iPod more. It is something that I hadn't done (play along with the radio, or records) before I got my Rick.

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:35 am

As a side 'note', I think it's at least as important to consider how you 'approach' & 'depart' each note you play as the actual notes themselves.
Sorry, I can't think of a better way to put it, but the lead in & out of each note defines it's feel to an extent.
IE: whether it's played staccato, let it sustain, or you slide up into it, or slide down out of the note, hammer-ons, pull-offs, ghost notes, etc. all spice up an otherwise mundane pattern.