Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

grazioso wrote:c'mon when you want something to play.... are you going to wait for it for bargain price for years or are you going to get it and use it? that's the difference between player mentality and collector mentality. all that matters is how your coin bag is doing....so well they are getting expensive - well what's the news? everything is getting expensive.
schecter 12 costs what 610/12 used to cost so that's the life.

The thing is, it doesn't take much shopping around to find better prices than Olivia's. Heck, Musician's Friend sells NEW Rickenbackers for less than what they typically go for on E-Bay. I am sure lots of other dealers who sell Ricks online will also offer better prices than E-Bay. The point some of us are trying to make here is, if people would just do a little shopping around and not be so quick to click that mouse on someone's exorbitant "Buy It Now" price, the value of Ricks wouldn't be so artificially inflated.

Labas, Brian:

I'll have to disagree on your statement and with the assumptions upon which it's based.

Rick prices are not "artificially inflated", nor have they ever been. Used Rickenbackers (including the most desirable of the rare oldies, both guitars and basses), have traditionally been undervalued by the market, especially when compared with asking prices on vintage Fender and Gibson solidbodies. In '75, a nice '59 burst LP was in the $8-10K range; a '50s Strat was a couple grand less.

Now, we all know though the market is soft, prices are still way up into six figures for a good example of either of these two iconic solidbodies. And their junior siblings, the LP Juniors and to a lesser extent Duo Sonic Fenders, have seen their own values more than double in the last three years, pulled along by their big brothers.

Ricks have always been cheap in comparison and remain so. Yes, there has been a supply-and-demand price bump, coupled with an increase in MSRP for new Ricks, and one model (481) has nearly tripled in price since '05, but these are to be expected and overdue, too.

It's still very rare for even a factory prototype to make it very far into five figures. Rick values remain driven by retail demand (high) vs. supply (low, and controlled), and the used market--split into players and collectors--is driven by new MSRP (players' guitars) or rarity and demand (collectors' instruments).

Even the Beatles, Byrds, and Petty connection has not driven values too high in the USA. Ricks are built well, their business plan (cost to build + margin, essentially) keeps prices reasonable, and the only thing likely to change in the future is the usual steady uptick of prices for instruments which remain, to my mind, the most amazing values in the market.

The clicking of the "BIN" button is not responsible for the rise in prices in any major way. Anyone scanning Ebay will see the variety of everyday Ricks available at any one time. A minority of vintage and collectible instruments might be on sale by vendors like Olivia's, with high BIN prices, but the number of instruments sold by Olivia's at these prices is very low. I'm sure that Olivia's would love to see themselves be a power in price determination, but at least for now, they haven't really clicked because of their prices, and because so many of us track the market and know where their stock came from, and at what price.

They would seem to sell successfully to two categories of buyers: The knowledgeable collector who just got tired of trying to find that special guitar or bass, and the collector who is new to Ricks and has more money than sense. Both are quite in the minority of all Rick buyers.

many of us don't want new Ricks. if we want something older badly enough, we find it. Olivia's and the like are offering stuff that MF and other new dealers don't carry. if one wants something older badly enough, they'll pay the price.

and let's not forget that there is phenomenon known - "my fav year and model". in my case for modern era it is 89 - 93 anything , i am more than glad to pay for that. to me those are ultimate guitars. i am very very fond of 450 450/12 any year. i just like them so much that i pay what some people would consider crazy for "entry level" & mostly beat up guitars but to me they are worth more than to other people so.... i guess i ruined the market so i am so-o sorry...i will never do it again...

Economics 101 - Supply & Demand. Market sets the price.

For years now, I believed that everything you really need to know about economics can be learned by running a lemonade stand as a kid. All models apply, in a basic sense. Wints can sell more in Florida year round than I can in PA, Tony C could offer free hot dogs with his drink and shut Wints down, a pretty girl in a bikini selling cool drinks on the next corner could put us all out of business.

I count myself among the biggest CS fans here, yet I don't own a 4001CS. Why? I won't pay the price they're asking. I chose rather to customize my own model. If at some point the market becomes more reasonable with respect to this model bass, I may grab one, but as long as someone is willing to pay $4000.00+ for one, they can have it and more power to both buyer and seller.

I may have overpaid by $200.00 for my V63 two years ago by hitting a BIN. If that makes me an idiot, well, at least I'm in good company, because I don't know anyone that hasn't done the same thing at least once or twice in the pursuit of something they really desire. It's worth what it's worth to me and that's good enough!

One way to thwart Olivia's is to beat them to the auctions they get their instruments from. They DO find the good priced BIN auctions; any of us could with diligence.

Olivia's currently has Desert Gold and Amber Fireglo basses, both priced around a grand more than I paid last summer for a mint used DG and a new off-the-rack AF. While I have gained a profit on a few sales, I didn't inflate the prices this badly. Better bargains are out there.

My thoughts are to avoid the auctions all together and just buy new Ricks. It doesn't make sense to me to shell out better than two grand for a used instrument, when a brand new one costs the same.

JimK

If Ric would make something that I liked I'd gladly buy a new one.

jimk wrote:My thoughts are to avoid the auctions all together and just buy new Ricks. It doesn't make sense to me to shell out better than two grand for a used instrument, when a brand new one costs the same.

JimK

Amen! This was the whole point of my earlier post.

First, I am sorry if I offended anyone. Using the word "idiot" was harsh and uncalled for and I apologize.

My rant didn't really concern the vintage instruments. As a couple of people already pointed out, the only way most players can get them is through the vintage guitar dealers or E-Bay, where someone who wants one is going to have to pay good money for it, whether anyone likes it or not.

The focus of my rant concerns the late model instruments. I have seen used, late-model (as in less than 5 years old or newer) Ricks on E-Bay sell for more than brand new ones would cost through Musician's Friend or most any reputable online dealer. The people who buy THESE instruments are the ones who are driving up prices, in my opinion. It used to be fairly easy to find a good deal on a used Rick, even on E-Bay, but not anymore. I do realize that with a lot of models being backordered at the factory and people not willing to wait a long period of time to get one, there is definitely a supply and demand thing going on. I could almost understand someone turning to E-Bay to get the harder to find models, like the C series, the acoustics, the 380L Laguna, etc. But there is absolutely no reason for people to pay a premium price for a fireglo, jetglo, mapleglo or midnight blue 330 or 360/12, as these are some of the more common Ricks that are available new through various online dealers.

Brian, even though the eBay prices for recent year instruments top new ones here, for Europe with the devalued dollar and lack of availability over there, these prices are reasonable for them, even with shipping. Since new dealers cannot sell outside the North American market (USA-Mexico-Canada), the ebay auctions become their store.

It depends on what you mean by 'no reason'. There have been production changes to many of the models over the years that some people like, some people don't notice and some people dislike. There are have been changes to the body shapes, neck profiles, headstock sizes, inlays, pickups and probably a few other things I can't think of right now that although many people seem to prefer as they are now, certainly some people will prefer the older versions. Just because the same model is available new does not mean it's the same instrument.

For example I would never buy a 360 from later than mid 1996 because of the upper bout shape change which I find ugly. So for me, early 90s 360s have a premium value over later ones - or a brand new one - even though they are not "vintage".

Like most high ticket items, guitars are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. I personally enjoy looking at Olivia's auctions. They do a very god job of detailing every inch of the guitar. And he does have a lot of very nice vintage pieces in which he documents the electronics, the inside cavity etc etc. I personally would probably hold out looking for a great deal on a used instrument, but some people just prefer to get what they want as soon as possible. But to each their own.

It took me over 7 months of viewing & bidding on dozens of 00016 model Martins daily before I found one with the options I wanted and a price I was willing to pay.

BlueAngel wrote:It depends on what you mean by 'no reason'. There have been production changes to many of the models over the years that some people like, some people don't notice and some people dislike. There are have been changes to the body shapes, neck profiles, headstock sizes, inlays, pickups and probably a few other things I can't think of right now that although many people seem to prefer as they are now, certainly some people will prefer the older versions. Just because the same model is available new does not mean it's the same instrument.

For example I would never buy a 360 from later than mid 1996 because of the upper bout shape change which I find ugly. So for me, early 90s 360s have a premium value over later ones - or a brand new one - even though they are not "vintage".

As I said in my last post, the instruments I am referring to are newer ones, specifically ones that are 5 years old or less. I wasn't referring to the older versions at all. I also said that those who want the older/vintage instruments will probably have to go through the vintage guitar dealers or E-Bay and pay good money for them.