A plea for wider 12-string necks - Mr. Hall?

carr · Post by **carr** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:51 pm

Jeff wrote "I might still consider an Arnquist spacing mod, but I think the real solution is a wider neck, period."

First step I think is to get Rickenbacker to alter the string spacing as standard. That will most be likely a more cost effective work around for Ric and therefore more palatable for them and also solve *most* players problems..

Altering the neck would be a major tooling exercise and also make the neck more difficult for players like me with small hands

John

philco · Post by **philco** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:59 pm

I recently bought a 650D specifically because of the wider neck, as well as because of having humbuckers as standard. The wider neck was really important, as I also have an early 4004L bass and wanted a guitar with a similar sized neck and similar maple fretboard. People who play the 4004 series basses and also want a Rick guitar will probably favor the wider necked guitars. You should be able to get the 650 series guitars with a bubinga fretboard as an option as well, in my opinion, to keep in step with the later basses.

When I wanted a second guitar with vintage pickups, I ordered a 650C as it had the wide neck as well, plus I could now order it in Midnight Blue for a different look as well as a different sound.

I think that it would be nice for people with small hands to be able to get the 650 series with the narrow neck as well, with a maple or bubinga fretboard.

While I'm wishing, I would also like to see a new color scheme. I call it Blue Moonglo. It is silver in the middle of the body and headstock, shading to Midnight Blue on the outer edges. It would also have a silver shaded streak running down the back of the neck. It could have a silver shading around a black headstock logo plate with chrome lettering, or the logo could be black lettering on a chrome logo plate. It would look awesome on the 650C with the chrome hardware and pickguard. It would be a great option for anyone that already has a Fireglo Rick and wants to keep a similar look in a different color on his next Rick.

If Rickenbacker never offers that color scheme, I may get somebody to do it for me later on.

philco · Post by **philco** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:16 pm

I got carried away and almost forgot to add that I will never buy a 12-string Rick unless it comes with the wide neck. Right now that leaves me with the 660/12 as my only option. I like that model, so I don't really have a problem as that stands. It would be nice to have the 12-string option on a 650 series guitar, as I prefer solid bodies and the 660/12 costs quite a bit more besides having a fretboard that does not go out to full 24 frets like the 650 series or 3XX series does. The 650 series is just stunning for the price. Everybody that sees and plays my 650D loves it, so a 12-string version should be popular as well.

dave4004 · Post by **dave4004** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:56 pm

Philip, I have an early 4004C but I definitely can't do the wide 650 and 660 necks. Just personal preference.

squirebass · Post by **squirebass** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:32 am

I've seen some newer 650 series guitars somewhere with a bubinga or rosewood fingerboard, I think it was maybe pictures from the NAMM show. You guys know anything about this?
I've been playing a 660/12 for about six months now and it is an awesome guitar. I'm a ham-handed bass player mostly, but the chords seem to fall under my fingers just fine on this thing. Now that I've been playing it for awhile, and developed a little proficiency on the 12 string, I wonder what a 330/12 or 360/12 would feel like?
I agree that those 650 series guitars appear to be a real bargain, and I played an Atlantis recently, a discontinued model which I believe is pretty similar to the Colorado and Sierra. It was very cool, played well, and felt really good on! I'm very much a classic Rick kinda guy, but these guitars have definitely gotten my attention at times...

fendertweed2 · Post by **fendertweed2** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:21 pm

I certainly respect the view that a wide neck 360/12 would run counter to historical precedent, and I'm very happy w/ my new 660/12.

That said, a wide neck Carl Wilson 360/12 would knock me over with a feather, I'm a long time 360/12 fan and Carl Wilson fan (not to mention McGuinn), so I really tried to love the 360/12CW, but just couldn't get comfy with the tiny neck.

Best,
Jon

philco · Post by **philco** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:23 pm

I don't know of any guitarist that's hugely famous using the 650 series Ricks on stage. That's a loss for everybody, since it has it's own unique voice and style. Variety is the spice of life, so life is a bit blander than it could be. Rickenbacker doesn't do endorsements, and I'm sure that a lot of wannabes would like an endorsement. I read where Ed Roman wrote that most big name artists don't give a hoot about having a technically superior instrument on stage, and when they do they'll just use it in private or in the studio and keep going out on stage with whatever they are being paid the most to use. You would think that mass market guitarists would wise up. But it's a lot like anything else. 80% of the people shop at places that only sell at most 20% of what is available (variety wise, not quantity wise), while the other 20% shop at places that sell the other 80% of the total variety that is available. The best is usually available in lower quantity, but in a wide variety of styles. So I live in hope that the 650 series will be expanded in the number of models and options that are available. Not just a 12-string version, but a wide or narrow necked 12-string version with maple, bubinga, rosewood, or possibly ebony fretboard. With or without fancy inlays. Natural or colored finishes. A choice of vibratos. A short scale model for the kiddies would be nice. Pickguards made from metal or fancy figured woods. Mixing a vintage pickup with a humbucker or hi-gain. Translucent finishes similar to those on the 4004 Cheyenne. And where's the mahogany or korina 650? Personally, I want one in zebrawood. By making the guitar modular in nature, it's about as easy to build a custom model as it is to build a production model, especially when the guitars are handmade to begin with. It's as easy to glue two body wings onto a 12-string neck as it is a 6-string neck. Since the 650C model is now available with all standard RIC finishes, maybe Rickenbacker is heading in this direction. I would like it to achieve popularity by its virtues, and not merely by artist endorsements and mass merchandising as some guitars have done. There's a lot more that can be optioned to the customer than a wider 12-string neck. I think most Rickenbacker customers tend to know exactly what they want, rather than wanting what some guy on a stage is using just because he is using it.

billikenn · Post by **billikenn** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:38 pm

Boy you dont ask for much do ya.
Personally I like the 650s as they are. If you wana mod it out, go ahead. Its not like they are soo expensive or rare that it would be terrible...

Mine has been modded.

Besides, if ou do make so many options it will just be more stuff people dont know about. You think a dealer that usually caroes 2 Rics is gunna carry an entire 650 line. I cant even get my dealer to get ONE for the floor.

I like the 650 being an obscure guitar. So when people see mine and hear it they go "wo dude, that little Ric has got a sweet tone"
I definetly dont look forward to every strat player converting to a 650...

and a kiddie version?

JP

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:41 am

All of this is so priceless . . . When a factory is running at 100% capacity and the orders still aren't being met in a timely manner, all of this seems quite irrelevant.

But we do have a few things brewing anyway, for that day when there might actually be time to build them.

You should see the guitar hidden away in a bag in my coat closet that I started about 15 years ago!

philco · Post by **philco** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:06 am

Well, yes, a kiddie version would be nice. Some young gifted guitarists would warrant the purchase of a pro level instrument. I think it would make a lot more sense than buying them a "Mickenbacker" that I believe was listed in Mike Parks' Hall of Shame. LOL

Most fancy Rickenbackers are special ordered as it stands now, so it would make no difference to a stocking dealer. They just make more profit on the options that are added to the order. They could always carry used regular 650D models for a special order customer to buy and use while his custom 650 or other Rick is being made, with generous trade-in allowances made when picking up the new Rick. Some high end audio stores have commonly used this approach for years, selling the customer a cheaper model then allowing them most or all of the purchase price toward a more expensive model if purchased within a year and the first unit is kept in excellent condition. I think Mr. Hall has already discounted the price of the 650D on his end. Thanks, Mr. Hall!!! Is the painted finish on a 650C REALLY worth $200-$300 more? Not to young starving guitarists on a tone quest. And what if that guitarist wants a 12-string Rick?

The 650D retails at only $999 with a delivered "street price" of around $650-$800 if you shop around, so it is an excellent baiting tool to get the first-time Rick customer to swallow the hook for a more expensive model. After playing the 650D for a while, entry level customers may have saved enough money for the Rick they really wanted (of course, I really wanted my 650D, and do not necessarily consider more expensive models a step "up"). The trick is to not lose them to other companies because they cannot afford entry to the Rickenbacker fraternity right now. Earlier entry level Ricks did not have the neck-thru construction, versatility, sound, or looks of the 650D, even if they had a low price. The 650D is a Grand Slam.

I do not mind if Rickenbackers become more popular, just as long as the quality is not compromised. Richard Vandersteen (Vandersteen Audio) and James Winey (Magnepan) built their loudspeaker companies up to where they are two of the best known, respected, and largest production manufacturers of really high quality loudspeakers for home music reproduction, with no loss in quality. The better to hear the jingle-jangle of Rickenbackers, my friend. Just try to get one of their loudspeakers at a discount level that some Rickenbacker dealers offer. No way! And you will usually place an order with a Magnepan dealer for any of their mid to high range Magneplanar speakers, pay full ticket, and wait two or three months for delivery. Shades of Rickenbacker!!! I paid full ticket for my Vandersteen 2Ci speakers nearly 12 years ago, waited for them to be shipped from California, and count them one of my best deals I ever got for music gear. Good enough to be teamed up with Conrad-Johnson amps. Still not a scratch on them or one bit of trouble whatsoever, and in continuous use since new, and in use right now as I write this. I count Rickenbacker in the same league; i.e., a better deal at retail than a lot of other brands at a discount. They should be in continuous constant use by a wider variety of guitarists, because life it too short for the same old sounds we tend to hear from the three largest manufacturers of guitars, not that I necessarily knock the sounds they make. I actually loved the sound of my P-bass, it's just that the 4004L is even better.

I would not want to see somebody walk away from a Rickenbacker because he/she cannot get a size or style that fits. If they do not want to pay for quality, then let them walk away.

philco · Post by **philco** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:27 am

I see that Mr. Hall added a post. Yes, the RIC factory may be at 100% production now, but things have a way of changing in the business world. It is apparent that the Asian factories are short-term profit oriented and not too concerned about the lasting quality issues. Recent Russian, Czech, and Yugoslavian vacuum tubes I purchased have me doing a reevaluation of my thoughts on buying technical products from those ecountries. My brother is an amateur astronomer, and I am an amateur photographer. We both know that Russian optics are possibly the world's greatest bargain right now. What happens when the country that gave us Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky, and now some of the best electronic parts, decides that they would like to produce electric guitars? I have been to Russia recently, and some of their recent consumer products are quite good. That Russian guitar that Olga (my B&B hostess) pulled out of the closet didn't look or sound too shabby either!!! Guess what? It had a wide fretboard!

I also noticed that when a Russian gets really interested in something, he/she really goes all out to do the best job possible and make a personal statement. They like money a lot, but it will not necessarily be the bottom line like it is to your Asian "competitors" (I know, the Asians aren't real competition to RIC, but I wouldn't view the Russians in the same way). It was obvious that Russians with money really have an appreciation for the finer things in life, and they willingly pay big prices for them. Olga noticed the quality of my mint condition Olympus OM-1 vintage camera, which few American women ever notice. I suppose there is someone in Russia giving a Rickenbacker a thorough evaluation as I write this, and saying to himself, "This is all very good, but what if I changed this and that, and made them here so that average Russians could afford them?"

It probably wouldn't be built like a cheap Asian copy.

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:58 am

This thread has continued to be of great interest since September 2001 and is as interesting and pertinent today as it was a year and a half ago. While the comments here are no substitute for a detailed marketing survey, the interest in a wider neck Rickenbacker is unlikely to disappear any time soon.

That the 600 series has slowly evolved to include 1 3/4 inch fretboards at the nut is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a demand for wider neck Rickenbacker. Nothwithstanding the backlog, it would seem likely that it may only be a matter of time before a similar trend may find its way into the 300 series line. I am wondering what the downside would be of introducing a limited anniversary edition 360 with a wider neck, perhaps the F.C. Hall Anniversary Model?

Just curious John, how wide was the neck on the Rickenbacker prototype in your coat closet?

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:05 am

I would be interested in knowing if the same concerns existed in the '60's with widening the neck...Obviously, we weren't blessed with a great Forum such as this back then, but possibly JH has seen correspondence from customers that wrote to his father at the time....(John, anything archived on this at RIC?)

I am on the fence about the neck issue. I have yet to play a 660/12; I have a feeling it'll be a great guitar...

The long standing data in support of no change is the popularity of the design, which has basically remained the same going on 40 years in July 2003.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:15 am

Things don't change too fast in this business, fortunately, unlike the MIDI device market, for example. And I can't think of any Russian product other than vodka and caviar that's entered the mainstream consumer market, perhaps as much as anything due to a lack of cash. Anyway, we'll worry about that one when it happens (which I doubt will happen before my retirement).

The downside of a wider neck is not the guitar itself but the factor of disrupting production to introduce any kind of new model, adding to a catalog that is already way too full, and adding additional work to an already totally overwhelmed CAD/CAM/CNC department. It really doesn't matter if we came up with the universal guitar, the one that filled everyone's wildest fantasy- we don't have the shop capacity to make it.

There's also the "not broken-don't fix it argument". If the narrow necks, which we've always considered our signature feature, weren't selling well, then it'd be different.

Ah, the guitar in the closet! Well, the idea is rather unique and this measurement would tell you absolutely nothing about it. Actually, you'd have to come up with some new terminology or point of reference to answer this question.

wormdiet · Post by **wormdiet** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:51 pm

The problem comes when customers STOP demanding new designs and mods - that means they're not interested in the brand.