A plea for wider 12-string necks - Mr. Hall?

rob_u · Post by **rob_u** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:23 pm

This post is really open to anyone, in fact, I wonder how many others feel as I do. Rickenbacker makes the 660-12 with a 1 3/4" neck (the body is just too small for me) and the 380L 6-string with a 1 3/4" neck. Why won't they make a 300 series 12-string with a wide neck? I have searched for a wide-necked electric twelve, and (of course) none of the other brands sound like a Ric. I am 6' tall and I weigh 214lbs, Please, please make a 12-string MY size. I own a Yairi 12-string acoustic (1 3/4' nut) which is much easier to play than my Ric. I can't be the only one with this problem. I actually considered (and rejected the idea), trading my Ric for a Dearmond s7312 recently just because the neck is wider. Of course, when it came down to it, I couldn't trade a world-class guitar for an cheap import. What I really want is either a 330-12, or a 360-12 varient with a wider nut (and the traditional rosewood fingerboard). Is there any hope? Anyone else agree? Mr. Hall?
Rob Uchniat

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:33 pm

Rob: Your sentiments have been expressed by others, usually by those who maintain that they have big hands or large fingers. Maybe you could talk RIC into a 330/12 SPC or a 360/12 SPC. Perhaps if you could establish a large enough group of buyers (as in 50 or so) this might be seen to be an attractive request. As an alternative, seeing that you own a 300 series now, you can place the low E string right at the edge of the fret and with spacing from there can make better advantage of the remaining space.

rob_u · Post by **rob_u** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 9:34 am

Peter: I don't know that I have especially large hands or fingers, I have heard guitarist smaller than me comment on how narrow Ric's 12 string necks are. It may be that 6-string electric guitars don't have necks that are narrower than acoustics, but the 12-strings are narrower. Check Martin, Guild, or Taylor 12-strings and you find that the norm for the nut size is 1 3/4". I don't have difficulty switching between 6-string acoustic and electrics, but it is a big difference to switch between a Ric, and an acoustic 12-string. My own personal opinion is that 1 3/4" is normal, and that Ric's are narrow. I do acknowledge that there are guitarists out there who would have difficulty with the wider necks (small hands?), but I would love to see Rickenbacker make just one 300 series model for the rest of us. We may not be the majority, but there are a lot of us. At this point, I wouldn't buy any other 12-string electric other a Ric, there is no guitar that sounds as good, looks as good, and very few are built as well. As I said before, I'm interested in hearing from the rest of the Forum about this.
I actually own a 620-12 now, which is why I know that I'm not comfortable with that body style. I used to own a 330-12, but I sold it, and then wished I hadn't. Later I had to trade a Taylor 610 for the Ric 620-12 - it was a very good deal, and the only way I could afford, at the time to get a Rickenbacker again. It's one of the best sounding Ric's I've ever heard, but the sharp upper edge leaves grooves in my forearm, and I have to play with a strap, even when sitting down, just to get it in position. I may try your suggestion of cutting a new nut, but I have never tried that before. I will eventually have to replace it with a 300 series, and that is the reason for this topic.
I would be interested to hear Mr. Hall's position on this, I know that a new model requires caution, but I do believe that there are enough players out there to warrant it. I don't know yet if they are on this forum, but we do exist. I still find it odd that Ricenbacker believes that there is a market for a wide neck 6 string (380L), but NOT for a wide 12-string. Mr. Hall?
Thanks, Rob
(sorry about the long post)

ann · Post by **ann** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 3:36 am

I have tiny hands, so my 360-12 fits me perfectly. However, I've heard so many people voice the same complaint regarding the width of the neck. It seems to me that a wider-necked 12 string would be a great idea.

axel · Post by **axel** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:43 am

(A woman in the forum - Hallelujah!)
It's one of the reasons why many people overlook Ricks instantly. A couple of millimeters would be nice, even on 6 stringers.
I have rather big fingers - some chords I simply cannot get all the notes out. Time and habits helping, I don't mind anymore. It even became interesting since I get to think of different voice harmonies, playing on the missing guitar notes...

It's maybe the historical accuracy concern which prevents from putting a wider neck on those most cherished instruments.
But if this topic is heard in big places - don't go get huge jumbo frets on this wonderful varnished neck. Just a little (.little) wider, as if there were no binding.

russell · Post by **russell** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:05 am

Yes, I agree totally. Get a 380L Laguna, or a 360 series, put on a rosewood fretboard, and make it into a twelve string. I've been looking for a hollow body twelve string with a 1 3/4" nut, but it has to have that twangy Rickenbacker sound. I'm 6'4" tall, 207 Lbs, and I have long narrow fingers. Please do this Mr. Hall.

axel · Post by **axel** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 11:22 am

I love the idea of a 360-12SPC... providing all 50 lads could get their minds set on the same neck width and shape!
If that were so, Mr Hall ?

rob_u · Post by **rob_u** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:26 pm

Thanks for everone's response so far. I completely agree with changing nothing except the width - just a standard Ric neck, rosewood fingerboard, standard Ric fretwire, etc. Just the standard shape Ric is using on their current guitars (maybe like the 660-12), and the 1 3/4" width. I think we could agree on this width, as it is prety standard in the acoustic world. I would certianly be willing to run to my local Rickenbacker dealer to put a deposit on a limited edition, but I do beleive this could be a valid standard model.
As for Axel's statement about the narrow necks - "It's one of the reasons why many people overlook Ricks instantly." Supports my assertion, and is backed up by Roger Mcguinn's statement from his instructional video "A lot of guitarists won't even touch one of these (Rickenbackers)"
But not to put Mr. Hall off, or to appear to be attacking Ric - I think we all love the guitars they make, but are sincere and passionate about this one feature. We all appreciate and admire Mr. Hall for his guitars, and his contributions to this forum, and I eagerly await his reply.
Rob

axel · Post by **axel** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:29 pm

Nut width is the practical reason why people overlook Ricks - the sound you can always open their ears and show them that Rickies are very talented instruments, wide open to plenty of music styles... mmm, did I say wide ?

Two customers for the 360-12SPC - who's next ?

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:24 am

Axel: Here is a 12 String Spacing idea that Mark Arnquist has submitted to help resolve the narrow fretboard issue for 12 string players.

axel · Post by **axel** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:16 am

No SPC then ? Just kidding.

From the pics, it looks like the benefit is about 2mm or a tiny bit more - exactly my plea!
Still, the low E gets pretty close to the edge... matter of habit, no problem.

Thanks Mark, the pics are really effective.
Now I know I can get a regular 12 and not necessarily go hunt down a TP or a base ball-bat'ed neck 660.
(now: v64?, 360wb?, 620?, 350v64?...)
a

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:04 am

With a 98% share of the electric 12-string market, a six month production backlog, and the inability to keep up with all of the orders for the current product design, what would YOU do as a prudent business owner?

axel · Post by **axel** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:59 am

With a 98% share of the electric 12-string market, a six month production backlog, and the inability to keep up with all of the orders for the current product design, what would YOU do as a prudent business owner ? ...be happy !

Sorry, I just love to see that 98 blokes out of 100 go get a rick when they want a 12stringer

axel

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:17 pm

John: Nothing like making this question come alive is there? I'm sure we can all see your point. Your question is an interesting one. It is not every day that I get to pretend I own an international corporation.

Seeing as you asked, however, I would let your customers know that effective December 4, 2001 that RIC would take orders for a Model 360/12 SPC with a 1 and 3/4 inch neck width option and that there would be an eight-month wait from the order date. This would give folks a period of time (September 4, 2001 to December 4, 2001) in which to consider this new option along with a clear message and fair warning that there would be an extended wait for the 360/12 SPC. The number of people that ordered under the extended wait condition would give you a reasonable measure of the importance of this option for RIC's market in general.

While I acknowledge that this theory is completely speculative, based on talking to persons about this issue for the past two years, I would expect that your 98% share of the market would not dwindle at all as those ordering the new instruments after December 4, 2001 would still have the option of the 1 and 5/8 inch neck width with a shorter wait period of perhaps six months (the backlog to which you currently refer). To go whole hog on this theory, I would expect that the number 360/12 SPC models would increase to the point that the production of the standard 360/12 might diminish accordingly. So the way I see it, tooling and planning aside,RIC maintains the market share and gets advanced orders with an extended time in which to manufacture buyers have three months to think about their decision and hence won't feel left out of the loop and customers will be presented with, but not limited to, the flexibility of a wider neck option

Now that I have gone out on the limb, I expect to receive a lesson in marketing. I think RIC would benefit from this 360/12 SPC option. Please let me know what you think?

sir_andrew_of_left_coast · Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:06 pm

Peter:

Would this 360/12-SPC model be a 21-fret guitar? If so, perhaps the same fretboard as is currently used on the 660/12 could be appropriated... just so there wouldn't be a need to R&D a new design. I mean, the only other choice would be the maple ones found on the 380 and 650 guitars -- and that just wouldn't do.