Hi!
My name is Thomas and I'm new to the forum. The reason I found this forum was that I was trying to find out what the finish on my new 620MB(love it!!) is.
So I found out by reading a few threads, that it is conversion varnish. What is it actually made of?
There seems to be a lot more of it on the guitar compared to the layer of nitro on either my Les Paul or Stratocaster. Is there a reason for this? Does the thickness affect tone? Because my AV´62 RI strat supposedly has an extra thin layer to let the tone "out".
Anyway, I love the guitar. It looks stunning!! I'll try and send some pictures later. Montezuma Brown is an excellent colour. Is it true that this colour is not in production anymore?
Best,
Tom
Conversion varnish... advantages?
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Conversion varnish... advantages?
Life's a garden - dig it!
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jingle_jangle
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Welcome, Tom.
Conversion Varnish is made of all sorts of good stuff, mostly liquids. Seriously, I guess you're asking what its chemistry is. Well, it's not a lacquer--nitro is one type of lacquer. It's not, strictly speaking a traditional enamel, either.
It is a term for a group of catalyzing finishes used on wooden items and architectural applications. In fact, the very varnish that Rickenbacker uses is most commonly used for wooden caskets!
The "thin layer" of nitro on your AV reissue Strat is there for marketing purposes and bragging rights. "Letting the sound out" is a phrase I've heard bandied about a lot, ever since John stripped his Casino. Makes perfect sense in the case of a hollowbody or semi and is most noticeable in the case of a carved (not laminated) top, the thinner the finish, the more obvious the difference.
However, some folks will tell you that, in the case of a really thin top, a good finish will aid stiffness and actually help projection. This is easy to imagine.
But if you could hear the difference between a thick and thin finish on a solid hunka like a Strat, you've got better ears than MY dog.
Conversion Varnish is made of all sorts of good stuff, mostly liquids. Seriously, I guess you're asking what its chemistry is. Well, it's not a lacquer--nitro is one type of lacquer. It's not, strictly speaking a traditional enamel, either.
It is a term for a group of catalyzing finishes used on wooden items and architectural applications. In fact, the very varnish that Rickenbacker uses is most commonly used for wooden caskets!
The "thin layer" of nitro on your AV reissue Strat is there for marketing purposes and bragging rights. "Letting the sound out" is a phrase I've heard bandied about a lot, ever since John stripped his Casino. Makes perfect sense in the case of a hollowbody or semi and is most noticeable in the case of a carved (not laminated) top, the thinner the finish, the more obvious the difference.
However, some folks will tell you that, in the case of a really thin top, a good finish will aid stiffness and actually help projection. This is easy to imagine.
But if you could hear the difference between a thick and thin finish on a solid hunka like a Strat, you've got better ears than MY dog.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Thanks Paul,
So it doesn't really matter how much laquer or finish there is on a solidbody slab? That's great because I really love the look and the sound of my Ric. To me what makes Rics extra-special compared to rosewood fingerboards on other brands is the conversion varnishing applied to the finger board. Luxury!
Paul- fancy taking a dog to the guitar store to choose a guitar!! That would be fun!
So it doesn't really matter how much laquer or finish there is on a solidbody slab? That's great because I really love the look and the sound of my Ric. To me what makes Rics extra-special compared to rosewood fingerboards on other brands is the conversion varnishing applied to the finger board. Luxury!
Paul- fancy taking a dog to the guitar store to choose a guitar!! That would be fun!
Life's a garden - dig it!
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jingle_jangle
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I would not go so far as to be absolute about solidbody finishes and how they affect sound. I just believe that the difference is miniscule. There's some guy out here on the coast who builds his solids out of junk wood with rusty nails left in, etc. He has quite a fan club, apparently. His sound different from anything else. Termites? Anyway, that's an extreme example.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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larry_mondello
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Nitro is soft ... easy to buff thru ... and does not hold up like CV .
Nitro is not flexible ... ever notice cracks on old guitars ?
Try finding cracks on Urethane car bumpers .... they add a flexible product to the paint to make it do this .
This buzz word of lacquer is that ...a buzz word .
Some paints work better than other .
Enamel Fenders ... mid 1950's to mid / end of th e1960's solid colors DUCO color
Metallic Fender colors ..Lucite ..mid 1950's to mid / late 1960's
These are NOT colors converted to Nitro Lacquer .. that is 100% misinformation . I knew Duponts Head paint chemist in San Francisco ... and Mr Stapleton said that was obsurd .
If you take a 1960 Strat and repray it in PPG Urethane ... it will sound the same as the stock finish you took off .
There is a good book on paint by Bob Flexner that I read due to a posting about it years ago on the Forum ...really interesting stuff .
Debunks myths left and right with scientific facts .
Merlin stuff is cool ... but I like to know answers .
Nitro is not flexible ... ever notice cracks on old guitars ?
Try finding cracks on Urethane car bumpers .... they add a flexible product to the paint to make it do this .
This buzz word of lacquer is that ...a buzz word .
Some paints work better than other .
Enamel Fenders ... mid 1950's to mid / end of th e1960's solid colors DUCO color
Metallic Fender colors ..Lucite ..mid 1950's to mid / late 1960's
These are NOT colors converted to Nitro Lacquer .. that is 100% misinformation . I knew Duponts Head paint chemist in San Francisco ... and Mr Stapleton said that was obsurd .
If you take a 1960 Strat and repray it in PPG Urethane ... it will sound the same as the stock finish you took off .
There is a good book on paint by Bob Flexner that I read due to a posting about it years ago on the Forum ...really interesting stuff .
Debunks myths left and right with scientific facts .
Merlin stuff is cool ... but I like to know answers .
guess who ?!>!
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jingle_jangle
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Lawrence is correct about the whole Fender custom color nonsense thing. Those color are most definitely Lucite conversions. (Lucite was DuPont's acrylic lacquer, introduced in 1957 in limited use and across the board (replacing Duco, which was nitrocellulose) in 1959. Lucite was pretty much gone by the mid-1990s, and had not been used on cars for a number of years before that. Imron, an industrial and airplane urethane was intorduced in 1970, followed in short order by Polane from Sherwin-Williams. The market now is pretty much polyurethanes.
Nitro was gone from California (except in limited use in furniture and wooden items like guitars) by 1982 or 3. It was completely banned in production situations by the early nineties. (I'm not sure about the exact dates on some of these.) It's an air quality (VOC) issue.
Kevin, you're close on your observations. All this stuff is toxic to varying degrees. Nitro is probably the least toxic! Acrylic lacquer was a good deal more toxic than nitro, and the current polyurethanes (especially the clearcoats!) are the most toxic of all, requiring a moonsuit if you're spraying it for extended periods of time.
Nitro was gone from California (except in limited use in furniture and wooden items like guitars) by 1982 or 3. It was completely banned in production situations by the early nineties. (I'm not sure about the exact dates on some of these.) It's an air quality (VOC) issue.
Kevin, you're close on your observations. All this stuff is toxic to varying degrees. Nitro is probably the least toxic! Acrylic lacquer was a good deal more toxic than nitro, and the current polyurethanes (especially the clearcoats!) are the most toxic of all, requiring a moonsuit if you're spraying it for extended periods of time.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Tom,
I'm a Fender fan and Paul is not, Paul is a finish expert and I'm not, but I'll add a few comments here:
No matter how it may look, I can almost guarantee that the finish on your 620MB is much thinner than any Fender finish. It's put on in very thin layers and then buffed out even thinner. On my former Jetglo 4003 you could easily make out the maple grain under the solid black.
Nitro was used because it was the quick cheap finish of its time, it was the standard in the furniture industry. It was never used because of any tonal qualities.
When Fender introduced custom colors in 1955 they found that they wouldn't adhere to nitro sanding sealer. Ever since then they've used different clear sealers underneath, and none of them "breathe". And none of them are really thin.
Somewhere in the archives of the FDP there's a post from Mike Eldredge (of Fender Custom Shop) where he said "Nitro doesn't breathe at 120dB". My thoughts exactly.
I don't buy any of the hype about thin finishes or breathable finishes.
I'm a Fender fan and Paul is not, Paul is a finish expert and I'm not, but I'll add a few comments here:
No matter how it may look, I can almost guarantee that the finish on your 620MB is much thinner than any Fender finish. It's put on in very thin layers and then buffed out even thinner. On my former Jetglo 4003 you could easily make out the maple grain under the solid black.
Nitro was used because it was the quick cheap finish of its time, it was the standard in the furniture industry. It was never used because of any tonal qualities.
When Fender introduced custom colors in 1955 they found that they wouldn't adhere to nitro sanding sealer. Ever since then they've used different clear sealers underneath, and none of them "breathe". And none of them are really thin.
Somewhere in the archives of the FDP there's a post from Mike Eldredge (of Fender Custom Shop) where he said "Nitro doesn't breathe at 120dB". My thoughts exactly.
I don't buy any of the hype about thin finishes or breathable finishes.-
larry_mondello
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Well that is funny , as I had my guy respray my 1962 Strat in Surf Green and he used Vinyl sanding sealer under the acrylic color ... that was in 1983 . It still looks great ...it was also the original color ... but some one striped it long ago ...it now looks so old that it appears as stock .
Finishes don't need to breathe .. nor does wood once cut down and dried .
CV sprayed on maple is easier to apply as there is vertually no pores in the wood .
Ash is a sponge . Alder is a wavy mess . So for Fender .. spraying polyester over those woods make for far less work .
Spraying ash the Way Leo's company did it ,was labor intensive .
Tone ... I have heard old guitars that have been refinished in new 'paints' ....next to similar old guitars with old paints .... unless you spray the way CBS Fender did .. you will be hard pressed to hear a difference .
If you can hear the diffeence between a Duracell and an Eveready 9volt battery (like a well known Texas guitars claims he can) then you will hear a difference .
Finishes don't need to breathe .. nor does wood once cut down and dried .
CV sprayed on maple is easier to apply as there is vertually no pores in the wood .
Ash is a sponge . Alder is a wavy mess . So for Fender .. spraying polyester over those woods make for far less work .
Spraying ash the Way Leo's company did it ,was labor intensive .
Tone ... I have heard old guitars that have been refinished in new 'paints' ....next to similar old guitars with old paints .... unless you spray the way CBS Fender did .. you will be hard pressed to hear a difference .
If you can hear the diffeence between a Duracell and an Eveready 9volt battery (like a well known Texas guitars claims he can) then you will hear a difference .
guess who ?!>!
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jingle_jangle
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Dave--I am a Fender owner and fan of the products but not the company's current marketing thrust!
My most recent project is a Sherwood Green Duo-Sonic with active electronics. Nearly finished after 15 months, too.
My first Fender was my first guitar--back in the mid-'60s, after I switched from keyboards. It was a '54 Tele. It was followed by a whole succession of Jazzmasters and Mustangs.
I've owned 3 Ricks. I've owned, oh about a dozen Fenders and enjoyed every one of them. Right now, though, I've only got two--the Green Duo-Sonic project and my original 1959 Beige Duo-Sonic, which I've owned since 1981.
Just to set the record straight.
Larry--Although wood doesn't need to breath, it wants to. It is always trying to achieve equilibrium with the atmosphere, with regard to moisture content. We prevent the breathing (and much of the wood's constant shifting) by coating it with a finish that completely seals it. Solid body guitars come closest to achieving a hermetic atmospheric seal. Any guitar with air space inside (and this applies to virtually all acoustics, and all hollow and semi-solid-bodied guitars) is constantly breathing. Rapid changes in temperature can check the non-porous finishes on these guitars, and lots of humidity variation can cause warping and/or twisting in these cases.
As I said before (and Larry and I agree on this) the type of finish on a solid bodied guitar won't affect tone one whit. The lack of finish on a hollow-bodied guitar can "open up" the tone a bit. It will also make the instrument more temperamental and responsive to climate.
The reason that it's common to see older guitars (solidbodies mostly, and Fenders specifically) stripped and oiled is because any fool can do it, and many fools do. It's a heck of a way to treat a chipped old paint job. I say, either refinish a guitar properly, or leave it alone and keep the chips.
My most recent project is a Sherwood Green Duo-Sonic with active electronics. Nearly finished after 15 months, too.
My first Fender was my first guitar--back in the mid-'60s, after I switched from keyboards. It was a '54 Tele. It was followed by a whole succession of Jazzmasters and Mustangs.
I've owned 3 Ricks. I've owned, oh about a dozen Fenders and enjoyed every one of them. Right now, though, I've only got two--the Green Duo-Sonic project and my original 1959 Beige Duo-Sonic, which I've owned since 1981.
Just to set the record straight.
Larry--Although wood doesn't need to breath, it wants to. It is always trying to achieve equilibrium with the atmosphere, with regard to moisture content. We prevent the breathing (and much of the wood's constant shifting) by coating it with a finish that completely seals it. Solid body guitars come closest to achieving a hermetic atmospheric seal. Any guitar with air space inside (and this applies to virtually all acoustics, and all hollow and semi-solid-bodied guitars) is constantly breathing. Rapid changes in temperature can check the non-porous finishes on these guitars, and lots of humidity variation can cause warping and/or twisting in these cases.
As I said before (and Larry and I agree on this) the type of finish on a solid bodied guitar won't affect tone one whit. The lack of finish on a hollow-bodied guitar can "open up" the tone a bit. It will also make the instrument more temperamental and responsive to climate.
The reason that it's common to see older guitars (solidbodies mostly, and Fenders specifically) stripped and oiled is because any fool can do it, and many fools do. It's a heck of a way to treat a chipped old paint job. I say, either refinish a guitar properly, or leave it alone and keep the chips.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut