4004CII/5 Comments

gshadoan · Post by **gshadoan** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:35 am

Interesting comment on the RIC forum, about the 5 string. JH states in response to a post:
"The good news is that you are fixing pickup problems. When the fix will be done is the dilema.."
He says:
"I think that's a bit of a misstatement. I have one of these basses and it's perfectly usable. However, after playing it awhile, I realized we could make it even better and that's precisely what I'm doing.

I'd really hate to believe that every time we do an update of anything that it'd be characterized as a problem being fixed. "

Personally, as a bass player, and having been playing 5 string basses for many years now, I have to respectfully disagree that it was in fact useable. Certainly I would not charectorize it as "perfectly usable". I am pretty sure that I know what a 5 string bass is, and what it is supposed to sound like. Since I could not find any thing tangible in regards to some remedy forthcoming, I felt compelled to "fix"/"update" the issue on my own. I guess I understand that a person in that position, could not say "Yes it was broken, and we are fixing it", which may open them up to some kind of recall/class action. Oh well, Mine is good now, but I still think things could have been done/handled better.
Comments???

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:57 am

Mine is good too and has proved perfectly usable to me and others. But it could be better and that's what the update is all about.

I will add that the choice of strings is quite critical and can affect the results greatly.

ken_swearingen · Post by **ken_swearingen** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:00 pm

Wait a minute John,you dont play bass your a guitarist?

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:03 pm

I've primarily been a bass player for the last 20 or so years, although I started on guitar 47 years ago.

ken_swearingen · Post by **ken_swearingen** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:14 pm

Wow I didnt know that.

henny · Post by **henny** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:30 pm

What's your main player, John?

4002?

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:32 pm

I own 15 basses these days ... all 5 stringers except for the 10 string model ...

The 4003s5 is basically a 4 string 4003s that they put 5 strings on ... Ric did a pretty good job but the 2 1/16" spacing was too tight for many players ... by simply cutting the string grooves differently in the saddles a 2 1/4" spacing can be achieved which makes the 4003s5 finger friendly for most players ...

I have never played a 4004CII5 but I have a 2030 and a 2020 which have the same exact pickups as the 4004CII5 ... I converted both of those from 4 to 5 string basses ... those pickups are only effective if you have a bridge string spacing of 2 3/8" or less ... this is true for the hb1 and the hb2 pickups ... any wider spacing will result in a drop off in the volume of the B and G strings ...

So for me Rickenbacker has not done a 5 string bass that I like to play right out of the box ... but neither has Fender ... that's why part of my basement is a workshop where I modify basses into what I need them to be ...

But if Ric had simply cut the saddles on the 4003s5 differently and put wider pickups on the 4004CII5 things would have been better ... The pickups used in the 4004CII5 are 4 string bass pickups and also 6 string guitar pickups and not 5 string bass pickups ... the only way to make those pickups cover 5 bass strings spaced that width is to stagger them like p-bass pickups ...

Maybe you should have some talented 5 string player test your prototype basses and give you input ...

for me the 4003s5 is to narrow and the 4004CII5 is too wide ... the perfect 5 string bass would have a nut 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" and a bridge 2 3/8" to 2 5/8" spacing ... I know some players like a 2" nut and a 3" bridge ... but that is too big for me ... also I would like to see Ric do a 5 string bass with single coil high gain pickups ... I just love that sound ...

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:03 pm

Also the stock 4004 bass easily converts to a 5 string bass ... when I do the conversion I squeeze in one extra tuner in the headstock and I drop in a Carvin 5 string nut and drop in a 2 3/8" spaced bridge and it works, plays and sounds fine ... a very good 5 string bass for any player with small or medium hands ... If you have lumberjack hands like Chris Squire then you will need 1/2" to 3/4" between each string at the bridge ...

pma · Post by **pma** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:53 pm

I have two factory 4004Cii/5's and they are both very playable. I use in ear monitors so can easily hear myself within the overall mix and when I need to play alone to tweak my tone. I do notice a very slight difference between the 2 basses as it relates to volume drop off. One of them (my first) does have a slightly lower G volume but not so much to be annoying. No problem at all with the B string. The other has no issue that I can notice. Both factory Cii/5's have not had any professional adjustment but could probably be further improved as Jeff has mentioned.

RIght now, I am actually only playing my 4-2-5 bass that Jeff modded for me because the of the smaller neck and the great sound.

Bottom line, I am waiting to hear about what Rickenbacker is doing to further improve their Cii/5's. Depending on what this is, maybe the originals can be modded for this. I do think that Rickenbacker tried moving the pickup higher on the body closer to the neck as a first attempt at dealing with the pickup width problem.

They must have something more significant in mind.

Paul

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:15 pm

I played both of Joey Vasco's Cii5's at the Confluence and noticed a definite volume drop off on the B and G strings. He had even adjusted the string spacing on the bridge to narrow the spacing a bit. While they are both very cool and playable basses with great sound, the pickup's magnetis "window" was to small. I suppose this could have been compensated for somewhat by the bass amp but one shouldn't have to go that far.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:28 pm

The Ric humbuckers have steel rails that are 2 1/4" that limits what string spacing it can effectively cover ... my experience tells me that 2 3/8" is the widest that these pickups can cover ...

Rickenbacker should consider doing a 5 string bass based upon the 4004 ... I mean using an unmodified 4004 ... the only thing different would be the 1 extra tuner, different slots in the nut and a different bridge ... that would mean zero research and development, no retooling, they would only have to stock 2 additional parts and drill one more hole ... and it would be a better playing and sounding 5 string rickenbacker ... the width at the nut of a stock 4004 is the same size as a Carvin 5 string bass ...

John ... if you ever want to check out my 4004 4-2-5 feel free to come visit me in Michigan ... or maybe I'll bring one of my 4004 basses to a Sothern Cal Ric confluence ...

gshadoan · Post by **gshadoan** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:35 pm

>Maybe you should have some talented 5 string player test your prototype basses and give you input ...

ROFL.... Geez Jeff, are you inferring John ISN'T a talented player, after 20 years of it being his primary instrument???

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:28 pm

I meant someone OUTSIDE the company ... I'm sure there is more than one musician who works there ... and a lot of bass players still don't consider the 5 string bass as their primary instrument ... a 5 string bass is a different animal ... there are inherent conflicts between width and slimness of the neck and trying to faithfully reproduce the lower frequencies and still handle the high notes ... actually I'd like to test the new ric models as would every other member of the forum ...

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:09 pm

...Hey, the 5 string bass is my primary instrument and I live close to RIC!!

As many of you know, I have two 4004Cii5 basses. The issue with pickups is one that I have avoided posting here since it is a sensitive issue and I didn't want anyone to get the idea that I was putting down RIC. Some of you guys commented about the the pickups not seeming to be wide enough when I posted my pictures...but since the cat is out of the bag now...that pickups on both of these basses is is not wide enough for the B and G strings. They sound weak and the tone is not good.
But I got great news..I spoke with John Hall about the pickups on my two Cii5's at the SoCal confluence. He said he was working on widening the magenetic window of the pickups. He also told me that when the pickups were ready, I would be able to replace the old ones with the new ones. That's fine with me. Other than that, I think these are the nicest built basses I have ever seen and played (and I've played many basses, from cheapo Harmony to Ken Smith and Alembic). I'm proud to have these beauties. I want one in every finish!!

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:58 pm

hey you could always play a 5 string mim jazz bass ... then all 5 strings would be and the tone would not be good ... and you would have a floppy b string as well ...