Irish Influence On Music Of The Sixties

[admin]

A number of authors have discussed the influence of Irish Music on the music of the 1960s. I am interested in what groups from the 1960s that you consider were influenced by Irish or perhaps more broadly Celtic Music?

A group that comes to mind for me is Fairport Convention.

[firstbassman]

Peter to me, the Big Four were:
Fairport Convention
Incredible String Band
Pentangle
Steeleye Span (though they came a little later)

Still listen to them, especially the last three.

[trancedental]

Clancy Brothers, Jimi Hendrix was a big fan as well as countless others like the Byrds.

[royclough]

The Dubliners had three hits in the sixties most memorable? being Seven Drunken Nights.

Other than those mentioned I do not think I can agree with statement Irish or Celtic Music influenced any groups. Those on folk scene perhaps and the odd song such as Wild Mountain Thyme recorded by The Byrds

Of course Beatles did a song called Maggie May as did Searchers.

[sowhat]

I've always thought that country/folk did have an influence on music of the 60s - and was, in turn, influenced by Irish folk music, but i may be mistaken...

[admin]

Roy: Perhaps I am reading too much into the Irish influence but, looking from the outside in, it seems to me that the Irish pub scene with its drinking and recreational fighting had a part to play in shaping the Scouser Rock that was to follow.

The country music sung night after night in the pubs, in Irish sing-a-long tradition, must have introduced many artists to Liverpudlians including Chuck Berry, Lonnie Donegan and the like. OK, so perhaps Donegan would really be a Scottish Irishman.

The Irish spirit though can be heard in the music and I consider that some of it stemmed from the pub life, but more broadly from the Irish heritage. The lilting Gerry Marsden comes to mind in songs such as "You'll Never Walk Alone" and even his cover of "I'll Be There." You have mentioned The Beatles and The Searchers.

For many, it seems fair to say that the guitar was introduced through Irish country and western music. I recall Colin Manley commenting at one point something to the effect that "the guitar was everything for us."

The more I reflect on the pub tradition, sing-a-longs, recreational fighting and drinking and Celtic music in general the greater role of the Irish becomes apparent. Many of the above may have been inherent to Liverpool, however, a number seem to have an Irish connection to me that would, in part, lay the groundwork for Scouser Rock.

At the end of the day, spirited performances have evolved from our evolutionary past and Liverpool's label as "Capital of Ireland" surely is no coincidence.

[royclough]

As always totally respect your, no doubt well researched opinion and in terms of Liverpool may have been a factor, but in fifties rather than sixties I would argue.

Believe me here in Bradford and Leeds there were plenty of pubs with recreational fighting and drinking and no Irish influence in sight.

The working mens clubs as they were called and still are up here in the North, always had acts on or turns as they were called, groups or solo singers performing rock and pop long before we had heard of Merseybeat.

The Two I's coffee bar in London from which emerged Tommy Steele, Cliff Richard, Shadows and other less known artists were certainly not influenced by the Irish but were influenced by those early rock and roll artists mostly from the States.

[admin]

Thanks Roy. There is no substitute for conversing with those who have grown up in the North. I appreciate that Bradford and Leeds have their own uniqueness and through your eyes I have learned that the circumstances to which I referred were in place before the Irish.

Just in passing, I did read that the Leeds and Bradford Railway established in 1846 allowed for the migration of people from Liverpool. I also understand, that this mode of transportation led to a dramatic increase in Bradford's population including a large number of Irish. It would seem that the Irish did have some influence from the mid 19th century onward. As to how much, only you would be able to say as I have never been there. But by 1861, the historians tell us that only on-quarter of the Bradford residents were born there.

I have also learned, thinking about to your post that there is a Bradford Branch of Comhaltas providing instruction in language and music. So some Irish spirit remains today it would seem.

I confess that with a name of McCormack there is a tendency to overstate the influence of the Irish and I thank you for tempering my zealous approach with the reality of the times. It remains, however, a fascinating topic that I consider worthy of examination.

[winston]

Peter,

My tuppence worth for your consideration and comments:

The influence of Irish music is perhaps more pervasive than most realise. In order to understand the type of influence that I speak of, one must explore and understand the roots of music as it matured in Ireland over several generations.

The types of instruments used through those generations provide some very clear and distinct clues to the origin of a piece. Irish musicians are known for their use of the flute, the whistle, the harp, the fiddle, the accordion, drum, standup bass, piano and in the early sixties the guitar.

What is also interesting, is the peculiar and very distinctive style of music that employs a follow the leader approach. Basically all musicians follow the melody. There is little or no deployment of a counterpoint. This is a very distinctive trait that quite often can be used to identify the true roots of a piece of music.

On to singing style. Irish music is very melodic. The lyrics generally tell a story and the singer, if he is a man is usually a tenor. Singers of Irish music alway tend to sing near the top of the register at the most lifting parts of the melody. Irish songs are generally fairly simple, melodic and easy to remember. They are also quite alarmingly more difficult to sing than the average person can imagine.

How does all this relate to music that emanated from Liverpool? Consider the Beatles song "Eleanor Rigby". That song could have very easily been written by an Irish Catholic, it is hauntingly melodic, has parts that soar deceptively into the high register and it tells a story. Also it is an easy song to remember.

Was the song influenced by Pauls exposure to Irish music and heritage? I would think so. I suppose that I could be wrong and I would stand corrected if I am. I would be interested to read your thoughts on my observations.

[royclough]

All valid points and well put, of course most Northern cities had a influx of Irish hence the reason there is nearly always a Irish Club in most cities. Bradford and Leeds of course also had a massive influx of Caribbean and Asian people in late fifties and sixties.


My perception or viewpoint if you wish is that I personally don't think it had such an influence on the music of the early sixties, most groups or indeed solo artists who came to prominence had only been born in the very late 30's, mainly 40's onwards.

Their musical heritage may have been defined by Irish roots, but my take is that they themselves were not.

[admin]

Brian: I very much enjoyed reading your comments. You have taken the Irish influence to an interpretive level beyond the earlier discussion of the thread and you have made your points well. As you have so nicely articulated, there are stylistic aspects of Irish music that transcend lyrical content and may not be immediately apparent.

To add to your comments, another aspect of Irish music, includes a handing down of songs by example as opposed to formalized instruction. Such a feature would certainly be consistent with the work of The Beatles and other Liverpool groups and beyond. The idea of oral music without notation is certainly part of the Beatles' history with Paul and John writing down lyics as guideposts until they had committed songs to memory.

Moreover, your fine analysis has reminded me of the ornamentation that forms part of Irish music based on the mood of singer. There are many examples of this emotional or affective component to the Beatles' music. Some examples might include "A Day In The Life" and "She's Leaving Home." At the risk of taking this theme too far, Irish music has often reminded me of a more free-wheeling, extemporaneous and anecdotal presentation, hence evoking stronger emotions.

"Eleanor Rigby" is illustrative of your points, a strong melody, an intriguing story, the tenor range and difficulty in mastering.

Your post has been most helpful and allows for a deeper understanding of the Irish influences on music of the 1960s. With March 17th fast approaching, this topic is gaining in depth and enthusiasm. Thanks for your interest, observations and knowledge.

[sowhat]

My $.02 - not really informative, but still... IIRC, some (or many, as the members of the band U2, Bono in particular, stated) British and American musicians have Irish roots, so could be that Irish music was adopted by them subconsciously, or naturally... I may be wrong, though...

[winston]

Peter there is another interesting little known fact that the Irish were singing the blues albeit in a substantially different form, for years before it became popular in England in the 60s. They also had their own form of country music.

Rory Gallagher's music really explored both of those roots in songs like "Laundromat" and "Bullfrog Blues". Another fine example is "Tattoo'd Lady". That song has a country/blues carnival feel to it.

I would also like to add that a rich social fabric but relatively poor living conditions likely played a part in the musical heritage of Irish musicians. Music was played in a very high percentage of homes in Ireland. Instruments were "handed down" to the family members in the next generation with the solemn obligation that they be played to the best of their personal abilities.

I personally look at music through the eyes and ears of a writer, so I will grant that my perspective is somewhat different to that of a casual listener. When I make an observation on a subject that is really outside of my area of expertise, I tend to look for correction or validation of my comments.

Again, I would be interested to read your perspective on my additional observations.

[admin]

Brian: An excellent comment on Rory Gallagher and his influence. It is so interesting how much history can be learned from following the music scene. His work surely set the stage for Sweeney’s Men, Fairport Convention and others.

I would agree with you that those faced with the greatest challenges sometimes have more depth to their work than those who have never known such isolation and pain. To this day, I consider that the Beatles worked better hungry than they did when they were a few pounds over their fighting weight.

Your comments have reminded me of the "spirit" of the Irish and those who have adapted, for better or worse, to the most difficult of times. I recall being taken aback, at least initially, when I first saw photos of The Beatles posing in the rubble of bombed homes.

There is a spirit and liveliness in the music of the Irish and the British Invasion that is hard to describe. It is captured in the early recordings.

As Roy Clough has pointed out, on more than one occasion, the British or UK versions of songs, even instrumentals, are quite different than those produced by American artists. The British recordings were thinner, more spontaneous and rawer to my ear, while the American versions often times had greater fullness and reverb and tended to be overproduced.

[winston]

Perhaps I should explain the basis of my observations. I am not a student of the history of music. Being of Irish heritage myself I did spend part of my childhood in Ireland. My observations are based on personal experience.

I do know extremely well what has influenced and defined me as a musician. I play and write my own material and I have drawn on the memories that have not faded into obscurity with the passage of time. My memories are rich with raw emotion and passion for life, music and friendships. Those are strong Irish traits that coursed through blood of my ancestors and now through me. I hear that same passion and emotion in many of the songs that made the charts in the early 60s. Then sadly the "music factory" era began. The music that began with raw talent and a rich social experience was replaced by slick production techniques and songwriting that was influenced by the emerging drug culture.

Today, music is my world away from the harsh realities of the world in which we live. In that respect, not much has changed for generations of Irish, would be my guess.