HOW close is the 360/12C64 to George's?

wwittman · Post by **wwittman** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:51 am

Was George's guitar measured, scrutinized, played for subjective feel?
HOW close?
Specifically, the way the neck sits on the guitar feels SO different to any other Rickenbacker 12 (I have it on excellent authority), I am wondering if this guitar will be that much different.
Was the guitar examined or only the original plans?
Were all the jigs and machining set up from scratch or are existing 360-12/v64 jigs being used?
that sort of thing...
Obviously some of us are daring to HOPE for a guitar REALLY like George's..not LOOKING like...
John Hall?

beatlesgear · Post by **beatlesgear** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:41 am

A 360 that is a few serial numbers away from George's was used as a guide, plus a ton of technical data that has been collected over many years. A very small number of guitars like this were produced during this specific time frame.

The 360/12C63 isn't a signature series model, George didn't provide his guitar to the factory. Other than Alan Rogan (his tech) and George's family, I'm not sure anyone else has had what you would call exclusive access to the guitar for more than just a few minutes.

I guess what it comes down to is when was the last time you played George's guitar for comparison, lol? At the moment, the 360/12C63 prototype is the closest reproduction ever built. I'm pretty sure the only thing being re-used from the V series on this guitar are the knobs and strap buttons, everthing else is a new. Since the specs of the body, neck, fingerboard, headstock, etc. are completely different than the V64, pre-existing V64 tooling doesn't even come into play as far as I know.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:36 am

The "tooling" for the head, body, neck, fingerboard, etc. exists only in software geometry. None of the existing V geometry has been utilized or referenced in the C Series, everything being newly digitized. As Nick stated, the reference for this has been a borrowed guitar only a few numbers different than George's. The digital representation is accurate to about 0.2 mm plus or minus.

wwittman · Post by **wwittman** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:53 am

Well that acknowledges I suppose that V64's aren't much like George's except for cosmetics.
Again, i am not trying to be critical, in a bad way!
Just wondering how close to this apparently rather unique guitar it will come.
WERE there actually other guitars "like it" a few numbers away?
That is, double bound, trapeze tailed, slash marker and hole, 360-12's?
I don't think I've ever seen even a PHOTO of one other than George's.
Only f-holes or dots or both...OR an R tailpiece.

also, isn't it true that George's has rather an odd serial number (with an "impossible" month)?

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:47 pm

William: There was the Suzi Arden 1963 360/12OS which was the predecessor to George Harrison's first Rickenbacker 12 string.

wwittman · Post by **wwittman** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:00 pm

Interestingly I have seen and played guitars like THAT, with an R tail, oven knobs and double binding. but never one with a trapeze.
Was that one changed at some point? Or was it an R BEFORE the George and Campbell trapezes?

beatlesgear · Post by **beatlesgear** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:43 pm

The R was added after, I'm sure it had a trapeze. In my mind, I'm thinking the oven knobs were long gone by the time the R tailpieces started to show up, but I may be wrong.

Look at the double bound on the back of the Smith Rickenbacker book, I believe that one went to Gerry Marsden. They made them with the Harrison hardware, but not many.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:59 pm

The Suzi Arden 360/12OS was indeed changed at some point as noted in the description at the bottom of the photo page cited above.

"The pictures of the Arden guitar displayed on this page show the instrument with the ledendary "R" tailpiece. The guitar originally had the trapeze tailpiece which was modified by RIC sometime in 1964. This "R" tailpiece is the first model developed and is apparently thinner and not as robust as its later deveoped predecessor which is still in use up to the present day."

This was researched and written a couple of years ago, however, there is no dispute that this instrument had an original trapeze tailpiece. You can see Suzi playing the guitar here. My attempts to magnify this photo have lead me to the conclusion, perhaps erroneously, that the "R" tailpiece was already in place and so the description that this work was done by RIC early on would seem to be a reasonable one.

Nick's description with regard to the Gerry Marsden guitar rings true to my way of thinking and I did see him on the Ed Sullivan Show with the trapeze. The photo I have reveals that Gerry did in fact shave the headstock to get this instrument into his travel case which he made in Liverpool for his trip to New York. Alas, Gerry's arm completely covers the tailpiece in this photo but you can see that this instrument was build in similar fashion to the George Harrison and Suzi Arden Rickenbackers, albeit fitted with the newer knobs. It have corresponded with Gerry on a number of occasions and his memory of the guitar is somewhat hazy and a bit confusing to the dedicated researcher. He responded at one point saying he had "a stereo Ricky just like John Lennon."

Just in passing, at least to my knowledge, the 360/12V64 was created as an instrument that closely resembled the guitar of the British Invasion period. While George Harrison and Gerry Marsden had the good fortune to play 360/12OS Rickenbackers, I don't think that RIC ever considered the 360/12V64 as an "identical in all respects" copy of the instruments that these artists played. They do, however, resemble these instruments in many ways and most 12-string enthusiasts I speak to have found them to be an instrument of high quality. That the instrument was never introduced as a George Harrison signature model should be a signal to us that a precise copy was not intended.

I realise William that you are not being critical and that the point of your discussion is to examine the similarities and differences between the 360/12V64 and the 360/12OS in detail. This I always find to be a stimulating and fascinating endeavour. Long may it continue.

krick · Post by **krick** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:38 am

There is a photo comparison of the "Arden" 12 string and a recent 360/12V64 in the "12 string Rickenbacker" book from Japan. It shows the R tailpiece bracket mounted on top of the trapeze bracket with the two hooks apparently removed.

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:49 am

Kevin: Yes. Quite the illustration. I have heard this before but have never seen the photo. Should someone have this book (J Willi) perhaps you could send in a photo?

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:18 am

In the meantime, here is an approximation of the idea using my 350. LOL

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:42 am

Here is the 360/12V64 and the Suzi Arden with the "R" tailpiece mount from the Japanese 12 String publication. Thanks Kevin.

ric_rocks · Post by **ric_rocks** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:27 am

At the risk of veering just a little off the main topic:

The bottom pic is interesting. Ugly, but interesting

I would like to go the opposite way around on my 330RBY. From R to trapeze, but I want to be able to put it back! Im wondering if it might be feasible to drill the trapeze bracket with the R screw positioning. Or is there another way to do this without drilling any additional *visible* holes?

beatlesgear · Post by **beatlesgear** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:41 pm

I don't think you would have much trouble putting two more holes in the trapeze bracket, it's a really good idea if you don't want to drill the body. I'm not an engineer, but I'm sure the stress would be distrubuted evenly enough throughout the bracket not to bugger the thing up, but you'll never know until you try it I guess.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:07 am

They have also changed the position of the screw holes for the trapeze bracket and the strap mount, they differ from one I've seen off of a 1960 model Rickenbacker and the ones they make today...I don't know about the C-Series hole locations.

Rickenbacker had actually made an 'R' tailpiece on a 1962 360 prototype pictured in the Rittor book. It looks quite different from the one we know today, and apparently RIC didn't decide to use this style for almost two more years (1964)...