Open/alternate tunings and Ricks

stubby · Post by **stubby** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:14 pm

I've heard a lot of comments on this forum about consistency in keeping tension on a Rickenbacker neck and the effects of changes in tension (e.g., when it's being shipped you should keep the guitar up to pitch, when you change string gauges you may need to adjust truss rods). I usually play in a lot of open, alternate tunings - open D, open G, DADGAD, open C, drop D, double drop D, etc. Will this kind of tuning up and down affect the neck of my 360? Is it something I should avoid? I don't imagine a drop D would do much but if I several strings constantly shifting, will that affect the neck?

rick36 · Post by **rick36** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:54 pm

As far as an alternate tuning, I'd say go for it - It shouldn't affect your neck in a negative way.

I've had a 2004 360/12 tuned to E flat (same as my Taylor acoustic 12 string) for more than 6 months with no adverse effect using standard Ric strings (and it sounds great tuned lower). I think the lower string tension gives the guitar a fuller sound and also makes it easier to play. I adjusted both of these guitars when brand new to take out the excess relief in the necks, and haven't had to mess around with them since.

As far as alternate tuning in general, I've gone between standard, dropped D, & open G (DGDGBD) on the same guitars with no adjustment necessary.

I think temperature and humidity changes affect the neck far more than any alternate tuning. I had a new 360/12 shipped in cold weather - a 5 day trip - and the tuning actually went up almost a 1/2 step from concert. It was all over the place. I had to give it a few days to recover - but still no truss rod adjustment needed...

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue May 23, 2006 6:03 pm

Your tuning went up almost a half-step due to the truss rod contracting and pulling on the neck. The new style rods will do this, as they're anchored at both ends. But once normalized again, only a bit of retuning is usually necessary.

doc · Post by **doc** » Fri May 26, 2006 5:34 pm

I remember this open tuning question-discussion! I was messing around with the dropped D thing last night. I generally prefer open E or G but I have some sort of problem that is made worse in dropped D.

I'll admit, I've been fooling with the intonation but even before that with the intonation set as perfect as I can get it, I have an extremely sharp G when making the chord or hitting that note. (6th E string in the G position) What causes that??? Intonation, neck, nut or all three?

doc · Post by **doc** » Fri May 26, 2006 5:46 pm

Has anyone ever tried "Kaki King" tuning? (C G D G A D) It's definitely weird but interesting. If you've ever heard Edie Brickell's "What I Am" you'll hear it in that tuning. Open C is kind of spacey, too. If I recall, some strings are really tightened to get open C and I usually don't like to take new strings up that high. My wife is NOT a fan of that tuning. Something about nails on a chalkbord or something...

stubby · Post by **stubby** » Fri May 26, 2006 7:11 pm

Or you could do the Joni Mitchell tuning thing - I recall reading an interview with her many years ago, where she talked about tuning to nature - you know, her low E string would be the birds at Bb, and her A would be the pounding of the sea at F# and the D would be the wind at C, etc. One of the guys I play with has tunings all over the place (and in fact does one tuning in Bb frequently that requires him to bring his low E down to a Bb). I'm wondering if these drastic kinds of changes affect the neck-again not one or two strings going down a tone but several jumping maybe even as far as two tones. I played a little in DADGAD tonight on my 360 and the low E string was buzzing a bit in D. Don't think I could bring it down to a low C without a good rattle. This rattle can be almost appealing on an acoustic -makes it almost percussive if played right - but I don't think this would work on an electric.

doc · Post by **doc** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:16 am

Joni made a guitar career out of some open tunings. 'Big Yellow Taxi' is probably the most recognizable, in G. My 330 seems to be "bassy" even at pitch so the dropped D is surely percussive. C would probably sound like a boom box.

I'm still trying to figure out Zep/Page's "Rain Song." It's mostly open G but it seems I'm missing something. Any ideas?

bluesyric · Post by **bluesyric** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:04 am

Dropped D sounds great on my Ricks, for "Cinnamon Girl", "World on a String" and stuff like that. Never had a problem with tuning or intonation.

stubby · Post by **stubby** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:30 pm

Sean, I'm pretty sure Big Yellow Taxi is in open D (DADF#AD) but capoed. Sorry Dave, can't help you on Rain Song. I've found that if a song is in an open tuning and doesn't seem quite right, no matter what you try, it's often because the player has taken a standard open tuning and changed the tuning slightly on one string - e.g., up or down a semi-tone. Or, you have the wrong open tuning!

doc · Post by **doc** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:32 am

You might be right on Big Yellow. G seems to work pretty well as would D capo'd. However. open D and E are essentially the same tuning but obviously different keys. As long as you're barring all six (or 5) strings in major chord fashion, both would work.

I'm fairly certain the Rain Song has just what you described - some 'Jimmy Page Only' tuning.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:05 am

Rain Song is tabbed and notated in this month's Guitar World Acoustic...pretty complex. It's at my office, so I can't quote the tuning. Sorry.

eggman · Post by **eggman** » Sun May 28, 2006 3:47 pm

Howdy,

I've been known to tune my 360 like a Banjo, plug 'er in to my '68 Vibro Champ and launch into "Happy"; it's a blast!

Eggman

stubby · Post by **stubby** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:12 pm

Tab is a funny thing, especially when it comes to complex picking tunes. I think too many guitar players try to emulate - note for note - songs and neglect to try and emulate the spirit, the drive, and the emotion of a tune. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't try to learn a tune how it was written and recorded but approaching complex tab with the aim of simply reproducing the song to a tee seems, to me, to be counter-musical. I chuckle a bit when I see tab sprawled out across the page and I try to play it note for note, bar for bar. A much more effective method for me is to first see the song as a whole, pick up the main patterns and then focus in on particularly defining riffs, phrases, etc. After that, drill down some more and nail some of the details. But, at a certain point when confronted with dense tab (or sheet music for that matter), I think the reproducer of a tune has to step back and make it their own, as much as they can anyway.

And for Big Yellow Taxi, Joni does some open chords that, to me, scream Open D capoed. On "Don't it always seem to go," for instance, try this fingering:

x50300
x40300
x20100
000000

Incidentally, I have a folk music club (grades 1-5) that I run at school and we sing tons of Joni Mitchell (we also do Strawbs tunes, Mr. Spaceman, Blackbird, Turn, Turn, Turn, and Three Little Birds by Bob Marley). They asked me last week "Why did the taxi take away her old man? And why does she own an old man anyway?" What could I say?

doc · Post by **doc** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:41 pm

Seems as if Joni had her troubles with old men. Those that "loved her so naughty", those that she observed, "You're mean when you're loaded" and the rest of those "mean old daddies" but she liked 'em anyway. I suspect that the big yellow taxi took away another inebriated lover but hey, I'm only speculating.

I'll try the D capoed thingy and give a full report. Now, if I could only find a blonde with a voice...

stubby · Post by **stubby** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:21 pm

And I'll pass on your comments to the kids. "What did Dave mean when he said she loved them so naughty????"