Performer P-500 Rock and Bass Cables

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philco
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Performer P-500 Rock and Bass Cables

Post by philco »

Most Rickenbacker owners are quality oriented, so if you are interested in a couple of quality cables for your Rick basses and guitars, read on.

I decided to upgrade my cables. I was using homemade cables constructed from Belden balanced microphone cable and Radio Shack phono plugs. They were better than the Radio Shack guitar cable I also had, but I wanted to try some cables advertised as premium quality. I ordered two Monster Cable Performer P-500 cables, a 12' Rock and a 21' Bass style, both in straight/right-angle plug configuration.

I took the 21' Bass cable to work and measured 880 pF of capacitance, 146 milliohms of resistance for the center conductor, and 77 milliohms of resistance for the shield. The capacitance works out to around 42 pF per foot, which is a bit higher than most lead guitar cables. The resistance figures were fairly low and means that Monster uses a lot of copper in the conductor and shield. Assuming an output impedance of 15,000 ohms from your bass, you will get an F3 cutoff frequency of 12kHz with this cable. You will be 10 degrees phase shifted at around 3kHz.

Both cables sounded very good, the Rock cable with a 650D and the Bass cable with a 4004L. The cables are very quiet; there's very little noise when kicking and dragging them around. Since most modern rock playing is done at fairly loud levels with high gain amps, I considered the next test the most important.

I fired up my Traynor YCV40 and selected the boost channel. I placed the gain volume on 6 and used the master volume (MV) as my measuring control. All EQ tone controls were straight up, including presence, and reverb was off. I rolled up my 12' Belden cable in 8" coils and held it in front of the speaker while advancing the MV. It was moderately microphonic and started howling feedback at 8 on the MV. I next rolled up 25' of Mogami Neglex 2534 (that I use for headphone extension cable) the same way in 8" coils and it also howled at 8 on the MV. Considering the extra length, it is less microphonic than Belden microphone cable. Next up was the "bad dog" of the bunch, 9' of Radio Shack low capacitance guitar cable (the one in the black vinyl jacket). It stared howling at under 7 on the MV control, which makes it the most microphonic by far, considering the short length as well. Who needs a tambourine, dude! Just roll up some of this stuff, plug it into your guitar amp, and start shaking it. It's "instrument cable" alright, if you consider it as the instrument. I'd pass on this cable if you move around a lot. It's also not cheap, as Radio Shack gets at least $20 plus tax for 18'. The phone plugs are nice, however.

Next up was the P-500 Bass cable. 21' of this stuff started howling at 9 on the MV, making it the least microphonic of the bunch. The P-500 Rock cable started howling at 8 on the MV, making it about as microphonic as the Belden cable. It probably has less capacitance than the Bass cable, making it more extended in the highs, but more susceptible to microphonics as well.

WARNING!!! Do NOT touch the tip of your cable when doing this test, or you will inject 60 Hz hum picked up by your body into the cable. With the gain rolled up as high as needed for the test, your neighbors will definitely hear it.

Conclusion: Both Monster Cable P-500 styles are excellent sounding cable. I wish they were a bit smaller in diameter, but they are flexible enough. The phone plugs look like "super quality" items. The Bass cable is especially free from microphonics and could also be considered by rock guitarists needing low microphonic cable for very high gain applications. The Monster Cable Performer P-500 cables are bargains when you consider they are style specific, low-noise, great sounding, and use very high quality materials. If you can swing the $40 to $60 price tag, go for it!
jwr2

Post by jwr2 »

yes ... home made cables suck ... monster cables are good ...

I used to make my own cables as well but now I just buy good cables ...
philco
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Post by philco »

Well, in my case it was the Radio Shack cables that sucked, and my homemade cables were OK. That Belden cable is the toughest stuff I ever got hold of, and it is thinner and more flexible than the Monster Cable P-500. Only the Monster P-500 Bass and Mogami Neglex 2534 beat Belden in freedom from microphonics. Neglex 2534 is not as tough and a bit bigger in diameter than the Belden cable, but you can send a stereo signal through it because it has 4 center conductors plus a separate outer shield.

There was once a time when you could build your own stuff out of good quality parts and save some money. Those days are basically gone. My only reason to build anything is to have special stuff that is hard to find, but these days you can find just about anything you want "off the shelf", and rather quickly. With the lifetime warranty that Monster Cable gives with P-500 cables, there is no way to really save money unless you get your parts for next to nothing. I got the Belden and Mogami cables at sale prices of well under $1.00 per foot, so it was worth my time to solder up a few sets, and P-500 cables did not exist back then. My Belden cables would have qualified for "state of the art" in guitar cables a few years back. Times have changed.
ricnvolved

Post by ricnvolved »

Those folks who are interested in high quality cables at REASONABLE prices are invited to check out the following website: http://www.evidenceaudio.com/

I bought a 12 ft. instrument cable, and 2 3ft. speaker cables. Without a doubt, these are THE BEST cables I've ever seen.
philco
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Post by philco »

Jeff, it would be interesting if you would coil up some of that Evidence cable and hold it in front of a high gain guitar amp like I did. Compare it against something that a lot of us already own, such as Radio Shack, Audioquest, Monster Cable, Planet Waves, Mogami, Belden, Fender, Live Wires, etc. All the other BS that Wire Bandits throw at us put aside, I have found noise generation to be the biggest bugaboo in guitar cables since guitarists move around and stereo rack systems don't. Tell us what you find, please. I like side by side tests with a known good reference, as I have my good and bad days when it comes to subjective conclusions that I make.

My test proved that there is a noticeable difference within a single product line, since P-500 is style specific and Monster does more than change the labeling on the jacket. Blanket statements should not be made on such a product, except "find the one that works best for you". My "high gain test" may aggravate a few salespeople and make them eat crow. Screw them.

I use Mogami Neglex 2534 in my high end audio system. We compared it to Van den Hul $100 per 1-meter pair cables my brother bought at the local "wire bandit" audio store. Nobody says Van den Hul is bad, and we could not detect any noticeable difference between that and Neglex 2534. Mogami Neglex is sold in rolls of hundreds of feet to recording, radio, and TV studios throughout the world. A lot of what you have heard has been passed through Neglex down through the years. Canare is another popular brand bought in bulk rolls by professional engineers. Musician's Friend sells Mogami at $17.95 for a 10' patch cable. One local high end audio dealer decided to play the "wire bandit" game and made his own private label cables out of Neglex 2534 just like I did and sold them for $70 per 1-meter pair (Ted's Excellent Cable). Mine cost $25 per 1-meter pair to make, and $20 of that cost was for Mogami machined RCA connectors bought at retail price. I've dragged my 25' Neglex headphone extension cable around my listening room for over 10 years, and no breaks yet. It beats more expensive high end brands as well, such as my Grado extension cable, at a lower price. Flexible yet durable. I expect solid core cables to be less durable, and less flexible as well. I also own Tara Labs solid core Prism 22 interconnects at $50 per 1-meter pair. Sounds not one bit better than Neglex 2534. Except it is bigger (bigger than my speaker wire!), stiffer, with oversized RCA plugs, and comes in blue color. Eye Candy for audiophiles.

Big companies like Monster, Audioquest, Tara, etc., can invest in welding machines that weld the conductors to the connectors. Welding, which fuses the metals together, is better than any solder there is, so do not fall for the "we use great solder" BS. If they could, they would weld their connectors to the cable just like the above companies do, and speed up production and increase reliability in the process.

For those of you on a tight budget, Monster Cable Standard 100 is so cost effective that you would have to almost steal your materials to come out ahead on making your own. Also, there are lots of "audio cable manufacturers" out there, but only a very few companies, such as Belden, Carol, Mogami, etc., actually produce the cable itself which most Wire Bandits buy in bulk then terminate themselves with connectors bought from somebody else as well. They may even farm out the termination to a contractor and function mainly as a design and sales (hype) organization. BEWARE!!!

Monster Cable gives a Live Forever warranty, and will probably be around 20 years from now to back it up. Wire Bandits come and go. BEWARE!!!
ricnvolved

Post by ricnvolved »

Philip-- I never meant to imply that the cables you recommended were not of high quality nor cost effective. I actually have a Monster Cable (no idea what model/style it is) and never had any problems with it. But I decided to try the Evidence Audio cables and I honestly feel these are the best I've ever used.

I'm right there with you on the subject of "Wire Bandits". One of the most overhyped & overpriced bandits out there is MIT Cable. How in the world do so many gullible folks let themselves fall prey to that marketing hype??!! And it's not just MIT; there are plenty of others. Evidence Audio cables certainly aren't cheap, but you do seem to get what you pay for-- or better. No less than Don Butler, The Toneman here at the forum, has high praise for Evidence Audio. When a company like MIT tries to justify their insane prices with techno-prattle, I get very contemptuous. "A fool and his money are soon parted." "There's {an audio cable} sucker born every minute." Yep, marketing rip-off companies like MIT Audio prove the validity of those 2 statements all the time.
philco
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Post by philco »

Jeffery, I never took it as an implication that Monster P-500 wasn't good. I just like any product I buy or have recommended compared to a standard or something. All these subjective opinions are just that......subjective. And that includes mine if I do not measure it or compare it to something. By hooking those five cables up to my Traynor amp the way I did, it left no doubt which were the most microphonic. They actually all sound OK, even the Radio Shack cable if it is used in a way the microphonics do not cause problems. Also, guitarists need to know how to test the cable before they leave the store with it, unless they have return privileges.

I use Monster Cable X-Terminators on my Vandersteeens. The dealer also had MIT connectors to sell me, but they were over 2 times what my speaker cable cost me!!! I could see no way they could give a sonic improvement. They were just another locking banana connector, although well made.

If Mogami Neglex 2534 were not so capacitive, I would have made a guitar cable out of it. It's slimmer and more flexible than the Monster P-500. For folks who have guitars with active electronics that have low output impedance, it should really be investigated. I use mine in circuits with impedances of 1000 ohms or less, so it causes no phase shifting of the highs. It was actually better than P-500 Rock on the microphonic test.

Monster Cable is not allowing any discounting on the P-500, as it is already a good deal and they have to charge enough to cover the lifetime warranty.
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bigbajo60
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Post by bigbajo60 »

I've been using a 21-foot Monster Performer 500 Bass cable for about 6 years now, and the only thing I've had go wrong is having the little red "Monster" label start to peel off of the right angle plug. A little super glue fixed that right up.
Before the Monster, my local music store knew that I was good for about 5 to 7 cables a year. The Monster, therefore, turned out to be quite the "smart investment"!
Does anybody here have any experience with those Fender/Carver cables? Are they worth their price?
My first bass was a Rickenbacker...
My best bass is a Rickenbacker...
My last bass may very well be a Rickenbacker
ricnvolved

Post by ricnvolved »

Philip Canard-- Check out Don Butler's comments about Evidence Audio cables over in The Toneman section of the forum.
philco
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Post by philco »

I did. The construction and materials would lead me to believe Evidence cable sounds good. Now I wish he would give us a microphonic test against some other known good cables like I did. Also, I would like to hear from somebody who has used them for 6 years like Alvaro did his P-500 cable. Also, is this Evidence cable "Roger Daltrey tough" like Belden microphone cable is? Evidence uses foamed polypropylene insulation, which is great for tone, but gives poor crush resistance. Solid core wire gives freedom from strand interaction, but it also fatigues much quicker than stranded and thus breaks much sooner as well as being stiffer. I am afraid of solid core wire in guitar cables, but use it some for audiophile cables. At the $30 to $100 per meter pair price point, nobody I know has really heard a significant difference between the two types. Strand interaction mainly takes place in oxidized cables made from low purity copper. My stranded cables are high purity copper and sealed from oxygen by high purity solid polypropylene insulation. They haven't corroded yet in 12 years of service.

If I had a guitar with active circuitry and low output impedance, I could use long runs of Mogami Neglex 2534 and get great performance at a low price with outstanding flexibility.
philco
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Post by philco »

I took the P-500 Rock cable, homemade Neglex 2534 cable , and homemede Belden 8413 cable to work and measured them on my calibrated instruments.

The P-500 Rock measured 37.6 pF/ft. capacitance and 8.58 milliohms/ft. resistance (tip conductor). This is slightly less capacitive and slightly more resistive than P-500 Bass. Doesn't seem to justify the comparatively larger increase in microphonics over P-500 Bass. Think I'll stick with P-500 Bass for future purchases.

The Mogami Neglex 2534 measured 66.4 pF/ft. capacitance and 11.9 milliohms/ft. resistance (tip conductor) when the wire pairs were paralleled. The capacitance is a little high for passive pickups and long runs. No problem for audio preamps and pedals to drive. The capacitance reduces to 36.4 pF/ft. when a single wire pair is used, but resistance increases to 23.8 milliohms/ft. This is great stuff for a stereo phono cable, which is why I use it for long headphone extension cables. The most popular use is balanced microphone cable in studios. I remember that old Audio Research preamps were optimized for 200 pF cable capacitance, so three feet of Neglex 2534 can fill the bill perfectly.

Belden 8413 balanced microphone cable measured 67.6 pF/ft. and 28.8 milliohms/ft. (tip conductor) when one conductor was used for tip and the other conductor was paralleled with the the shield and connected to ring. Wiring both conductors to tip will increase capacitance to shield. I did not test in true balanced configuration with both conductors floating in relation to a grounded shield. If you don't have XLR type connectors in your system, then you don't use this configuration anyway. If you do, a 200 or 600 ohm microphone preamp will drive a hundred feet or more without a problem. The diameter is small, microphonics are OK, super flexible, super tough, and the rubber insulation doesn't melt like plastic insulation does when you solder. The beryllium copper conductors are extremely fatigue resistant (not for high purity copper freaks). The fiber separators between wires and shield braid yield incredible tensile strength and crush resistance while maintaining flexibility. It is available in a larger 8412 style for even more physical strength, but it has higher capacitance than 8413. If nothing else holds up under your abuse, give this cable a try with high quality connectors (Switchcraft, Cannon, Neutrik, etc.). Great for Roger Daltrey impersonators.
toneman

Post by toneman »

My 20' Evidence cable measured 627pf (or 31.35pf per foot)and the resistance from tip to tip is 0.5 ohms and the same on the outer shield wire.
HiGain Test...I don't own a high gain amp! WHY?
Best I can do is my new AC-30HW Limited Edtion with all controls on "10": No feedback or howl.
Same thing with my old Plexi era Marshall with GEC KT-66 output valves and Brimar preamp valves. No feedback or howl.
philco
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Post by philco »

Don, I'm glad to hear that the Evidence cables have no microphonic issues on your amps. I hope to try some one day. Sounds like they might be very good home practice cables for me. I'm VERY leery of anything by stranded cables for tougher duty situations. You'll find only stranded cable in patient leads on medical equipment, and even they fail after a few months or years of service.

Well, the purpose of the microphonic test on a High Gain Amp was to test the usefulness of the cables for somebody like my brother who plays a high gain style of music: EVH, Jimi Hendrix, Joe Satriani, etc. I complained that the preamp tubes I had installed in my Traynor YCV40 seemed to have too much gain (E-H 12AX7, later changed to JJ ECC83S) and I had to play with the gain and volume set lower than on my Marshall AVT50. He was rather shocked at my opinion and seriously insisted that you NEVER could have too much gain. He was really ADAMANT on that one! For him, there is NO such thing as too much gain in an amp. The YCV40 doesn't need an overdrive pedal to play VERY high gain style rock music. It's so simple and direct that way. For players like him, there are Triple Rectifiers, and now the YCV40. He was very favorably impressed by the high gain YCV40, and he checked it out using my 650D, which he also likes for high gain rock music. The cable he used was the 12' Belden 8413. He couldn't believe how loud those 40 tube watts were. He had to look at that single 12" Celestion and single pair of 5881 tubes to believe it. Also, the YCV40 has very low noise (almost transistor quiet) for the amount of gain it has and cable microphonics would be more easily noticed. So, the 650D/YCV40 combo made a very favorable impression on a Charvel/Randall type of heavy rocker. Even he never had the gain and volume controls up to where I did on my microphonic test (except maybe the Radio Shack cables), but I feel there are some people who would, since the gain is there to be used and the amp has very low noise. For those who use that kind of gain on that kind of amp, Monster Cable P-500 Bass should be on their audition list, even if they play guitar instead of bass. A lot of future 650C and 650D owners will be playing that style of music, as the RIC 650 series is very well suited to it.

I am thinking of buying a 12' P-500 Jazz cable for my new 650C, and if I do I will measure/evaluate it and post the results in this thread. They should go well with an Epiphone Galaxy 10 all-tube single ended Class A amp as well, for home practice at least.......I'm considering one of those as well.
philco
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Post by philco »

I found a good source for Mogami W2524 Impedance Transmission Cable (techspeak for musical instrument cable): Electronic City, Burbank, CA. 818-842-5275

You can get 100 feet for $46. Also, the Neutrik NP2C-BAG 1/4" mono plug just like the Mogami factory wired cables come with are available for $2.63 each in quantities between 10 and 25.

100 feet of cable and a dozen plugs will set you back $77.56 and allow you to make 6 guitar cables. That's a little over $13 each on average including S&H. They will look (and be) identical to the factory cables that Musician's Friend sells for $37.95 or more.

Don't be fooled by the low price. Mogami is a true high end cable and is used in more profeessional studios than any other brand. Electronic City has a wide variety of Mogami cable types available, including Neglex W2534 microphone cable and other types intended for internal wiring in preamps, amps, recording consoles, etc. The Neglex W2534 was priced at 65 cents per foot in small quantities, and I have seen it priced at $1.40 per foot from audiophile parts supply houses.
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