Evidence Audio Cables
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Evidence Audio Cables
Don: There is a thread under the Rickenbacker Basses discussing the merits of Evidence Audio cables. The reviews of the guitar cords is excellent thus far. What makes these cables so good, from a technical point of view?
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toneman
Peter; He uses two solid core IGL Copper wires for the hot(+) conductors. Solid cores of pure copper transfer the signal frequencies much better than stranded wire does. More mass for the signal to go thru usually equals wider freq. response. The copper wires are inside a foamed polypropylene insulation to isolate and protect the wire. Over that is a copper braided shield followed by a graphite wrap to cut the mechanical noise( you know when you drag your cable across the floor or step on it you get that sound transfered to your amp). No noise with this cable.
I started using them after American Airlines lost/stole my suitcase last December. the suitcase had all my Munster Cables in it. I decided it was time to find something better(even though they weren't that bad really. I really like the sound of the Evidence Audio cables!! I had bought some of the Klotz Cables right before I found Evidence and found them to be a bit soft sounding and lack punch. My guitar and amp seemed a bit darker with out any high end clarity. All was answered when I got the Evidence!
I started using them after American Airlines lost/stole my suitcase last December. the suitcase had all my Munster Cables in it. I decided it was time to find something better(even though they weren't that bad really. I really like the sound of the Evidence Audio cables!! I had bought some of the Klotz Cables right before I found Evidence and found them to be a bit soft sounding and lack punch. My guitar and amp seemed a bit darker with out any high end clarity. All was answered when I got the Evidence!
Don, would you mind going to the Rickenbacker Basses and reading how I gave Monster P-500 Bass and Rock cables a microphonic test against 3 other cables. It would be interesting to see how Evidence fares against some other cables you own. All you need is a high gain guitar amp and the cables. Also, if you have a capacitance meter and milliohmmeter handy, those readings would be interesting as well.
I have put Mogami Neglex 2534 up against some really expensive cables ($100 per 1-meter pair Van Den Hul), and it comes through with flying colors every time. It's main failing is high capacitance, but that is no problem in low impedance circuits such as active pickups or headphone amps or preamps or pedals with active outputs. It's rather cost effective, and easy to get from recording studio supply sources, so you might want to make you up a cable for testing against Evidence cables. It's a longtime industry standard. I have used a headphone extension cable made from Neglex 2534 for over 10 years, and it has never broken although I would have to buy a new Sennheiser headphone cable that I plugged into it about every 2 years. It's better than my Grado extension cable that cost much more per foot. It's durable enough for guitar and would work well in any with low output impedance. My tube preamp has 1000 ohms output impedance and drives it with no problem whatsoever.
Canare Star Quad is another good industry standard that competes against Mogami Neglex 2534, and is available in bulk spools as well. Corey Greenberg from Stereophile magazine once recommended it and terminates it the same way I do Neglex 2534 (Corey plays guitar, by the way. John Atkinson, the editor, plays bass). The outer shield is only connected to ONE connector, and that connector is tied to a common ground (star ground) point, which in an audiophile system is the preamp. Same for a guitar amp; the connector with the shield connection goes to the preamp, amp head, or combo amp. I think Evidence uses a similar shielding method.
I have put Mogami Neglex 2534 up against some really expensive cables ($100 per 1-meter pair Van Den Hul), and it comes through with flying colors every time. It's main failing is high capacitance, but that is no problem in low impedance circuits such as active pickups or headphone amps or preamps or pedals with active outputs. It's rather cost effective, and easy to get from recording studio supply sources, so you might want to make you up a cable for testing against Evidence cables. It's a longtime industry standard. I have used a headphone extension cable made from Neglex 2534 for over 10 years, and it has never broken although I would have to buy a new Sennheiser headphone cable that I plugged into it about every 2 years. It's better than my Grado extension cable that cost much more per foot. It's durable enough for guitar and would work well in any with low output impedance. My tube preamp has 1000 ohms output impedance and drives it with no problem whatsoever.
Canare Star Quad is another good industry standard that competes against Mogami Neglex 2534, and is available in bulk spools as well. Corey Greenberg from Stereophile magazine once recommended it and terminates it the same way I do Neglex 2534 (Corey plays guitar, by the way. John Atkinson, the editor, plays bass). The outer shield is only connected to ONE connector, and that connector is tied to a common ground (star ground) point, which in an audiophile system is the preamp. Same for a guitar amp; the connector with the shield connection goes to the preamp, amp head, or combo amp. I think Evidence uses a similar shielding method.
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toneman
I'm finding that the gauge of the wire in most guitar cables doesn't vary all that much. The quality of materials and the care with which it is designed and constructed seems to be the determining factor. I have seen audiophile cables that looked like garden hose, they were so big. The size didn't seem to help the sound any.
I am guessing the foamed polyethylene dielectric used in the Evidence cable is a major reason for the sound difference you hear. It doesn't seem to be very common in guitar cables from other manufacturers. I got some coax with foamed polyethylene dielectric from Radio Shack on a small spool and used it in my tubed audiophile preamp project as the internal signal wiring. I put my homebrew preamp up against a $4000 Convergent Audio Technology SL-1 preamp at an audiophile shootout. Before I left, the SL-1 owner was trying to buy my homemade preamp from me! That was in 1995, the preamp is still doing excellent service for me. It used constant-mu (mu follower?) circuit topology, which has since been surpassed by the unbuffered multiple-paralleled triode zero-feedback circuit topology of the new Conrad-Johnson Premier series preamps. I would later learn that Conrad-Johnson and I had separately arrived at very similar power supply circuit topology. We used low parallel impedance, where common convention has taught low series impedance. We both use resistors after our active voltage regulators to RAISE the series impedance in the power supply.
Anyway, foamed polyethylene dielectric is suitable for cabling in high end audio equipment, so it should work fine in guitar cabling as well. You can hook your guitar cables up to adapters and insert them into a high end audio system with low coloration to check for a sonic signature. Guitars and guitar amps are too colored to check this accurately. They can tell you if you like it or not, however. That's the acid test.
I am guessing the foamed polyethylene dielectric used in the Evidence cable is a major reason for the sound difference you hear. It doesn't seem to be very common in guitar cables from other manufacturers. I got some coax with foamed polyethylene dielectric from Radio Shack on a small spool and used it in my tubed audiophile preamp project as the internal signal wiring. I put my homebrew preamp up against a $4000 Convergent Audio Technology SL-1 preamp at an audiophile shootout. Before I left, the SL-1 owner was trying to buy my homemade preamp from me! That was in 1995, the preamp is still doing excellent service for me. It used constant-mu (mu follower?) circuit topology, which has since been surpassed by the unbuffered multiple-paralleled triode zero-feedback circuit topology of the new Conrad-Johnson Premier series preamps. I would later learn that Conrad-Johnson and I had separately arrived at very similar power supply circuit topology. We used low parallel impedance, where common convention has taught low series impedance. We both use resistors after our active voltage regulators to RAISE the series impedance in the power supply.
Anyway, foamed polyethylene dielectric is suitable for cabling in high end audio equipment, so it should work fine in guitar cabling as well. You can hook your guitar cables up to adapters and insert them into a high end audio system with low coloration to check for a sonic signature. Guitars and guitar amps are too colored to check this accurately. They can tell you if you like it or not, however. That's the acid test.
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toneman
Phillip; Thanks for your input and observations. I do appreciate all the time, effort and consideration you've put into these comparisons!!
All I know is I have finiky ears and it's hard for me to settle for what everyone else uses sometimes. That's pretty much how I ended up with the Evidence Cables. Your stereo stuff sounds very interesting. Much more involved than my stuff which are old sixties Fisher's (800-C, 400 & X-101-C). I have gone as far though as replacing coupling caps in them with Hoviland's and Auricaps, FRED's for rectifier's and using good valves/ tubes and good cable for interconnects.
I did have to laugh though about the "garden hose" size cable for speakers... I remember once when I was working at Soundcraft Console's back in the late eighties, one of the guys there spent $1,500. for a pair of 10' speaker cables that were huge. Looked like around 8 or 10 guage wire. I couldn't hear much difference between that and what he already had been using..
Thanks again!!!!!
All I know is I have finiky ears and it's hard for me to settle for what everyone else uses sometimes. That's pretty much how I ended up with the Evidence Cables. Your stereo stuff sounds very interesting. Much more involved than my stuff which are old sixties Fisher's (800-C, 400 & X-101-C). I have gone as far though as replacing coupling caps in them with Hoviland's and Auricaps, FRED's for rectifier's and using good valves/ tubes and good cable for interconnects.
I did have to laugh though about the "garden hose" size cable for speakers... I remember once when I was working at Soundcraft Console's back in the late eighties, one of the guys there spent $1,500. for a pair of 10' speaker cables that were huge. Looked like around 8 or 10 guage wire. I couldn't hear much difference between that and what he already had been using..
Thanks again!!!!!
Don, before spending big bucks for "big name" audiophile capacitors, check out the tin foil/film capacitors that Steve Melkithesian sells as the Angela Cap. They are made by SCR in France, I believe. Mine are for output coupling caps in the all-tube phono amp I am building as a mate to the linestage preamp I built. Tin is a semi-noble metal, much moreso than copper, but still easily affordable. Boy, are those caps heavy compared to the aluminum foil types! Not nearly as expensive as the brands you mentioned. Steve claims they are almost as good as the ultra-fi Jensen oil caps he imports from Denmark. Cost effective for guitar amps as well.
Also, since you run KT66 tubes in one of your amps, I want to mention that I tried the new Sovtek KT66 tubes ($100 per matched quad) in my Heathkit W-5M amps and they sound great. They also took a horrendous pounding of over 600 volts on startup due to using 5U4G rectifiers instead of 5AR4 rectifiers that I now have. The amp was supposed to use 5R4GY rectifiers, but they are current starved compared to the other two. The 5AR4 delays the B+ until the KT66 cathodes heat up, so the plates no longer "crackle" on startup. The Sovtek KT66 is designed with the SAME HEATER CURRENT AS A 6L6, so ANY 6L6 owner should be able to enjoy this superior tube without burning out his filament windings like a British KT66 sometimes will due to increased filament current draw.
One thing I learned personally, and also read in an interview of Nelson Pass, the legendary high end audio designer: "The fanciest and most expensive parts in the world will not make up for compromised circuit design". Mediocre parts in a top design will beat the best parts in a mediocre design every time. My preamp used mostly cheap parts, as I wanted to prove my design. Some expensive parts DID make a difference: the toroid transformer gave reduced EMI noise since my tranny was onboard. The TKD conductive plastic stereo pots were incredibly quiet and incredibly well matched between sections, but that $65 price each.......OUCH!!! I am basically through with vintage high end audio gear. Too expensive to upgrade, and the new stuff really thrashes it in the sound department.
Newer amps like the YCV40 seem to be giving their higher priced competition a lesson in price/performance ratio. I know a guy that compared a Deluxe Reverb to a YCV40, and hearing no real difference, let his wallet do the voting. I am looking at a little Class A 10W all-tube single ended amp right now. It has glowing reviews on Harmony Central without a single unhappy owner. The amp is on sale at Musician's Friend for $200, and uses a 12AX7 and a 6L6 and a Celestion speaker. WHY BUY AN OLD CHAMP WITH PROBLEMS FOR THE SAME OR MORE MONEY? Heck, the Kustom Tube 12 that Musician's Friend sells for $80 now will beat an old Champ, and can play high gain distorted rock as well as make a Gretsch sound country clean. I can hear some of you moaning and cursing me right now, but slam a Vintage 8 (rock) or Legend 875 (country) in that Tube 12 and get back with me.
I did some shopping today and found Mogami W2524 coax that is specifically designed for high impedance guitar circuits for the low, low cost of only 39 cents a foot. Musician's Friend sells a 15' Neutrik phono plug terminated cable made by Mogami from this same stuff for $37.95. I think building your own cable from this stuff could be cost effective, and would probably compare well against the Evidence cable. I'm thinking of buying a 100-foot roll for $39 plus S&H.
Also, since you run KT66 tubes in one of your amps, I want to mention that I tried the new Sovtek KT66 tubes ($100 per matched quad) in my Heathkit W-5M amps and they sound great. They also took a horrendous pounding of over 600 volts on startup due to using 5U4G rectifiers instead of 5AR4 rectifiers that I now have. The amp was supposed to use 5R4GY rectifiers, but they are current starved compared to the other two. The 5AR4 delays the B+ until the KT66 cathodes heat up, so the plates no longer "crackle" on startup. The Sovtek KT66 is designed with the SAME HEATER CURRENT AS A 6L6, so ANY 6L6 owner should be able to enjoy this superior tube without burning out his filament windings like a British KT66 sometimes will due to increased filament current draw.
One thing I learned personally, and also read in an interview of Nelson Pass, the legendary high end audio designer: "The fanciest and most expensive parts in the world will not make up for compromised circuit design". Mediocre parts in a top design will beat the best parts in a mediocre design every time. My preamp used mostly cheap parts, as I wanted to prove my design. Some expensive parts DID make a difference: the toroid transformer gave reduced EMI noise since my tranny was onboard. The TKD conductive plastic stereo pots were incredibly quiet and incredibly well matched between sections, but that $65 price each.......OUCH!!! I am basically through with vintage high end audio gear. Too expensive to upgrade, and the new stuff really thrashes it in the sound department.
Newer amps like the YCV40 seem to be giving their higher priced competition a lesson in price/performance ratio. I know a guy that compared a Deluxe Reverb to a YCV40, and hearing no real difference, let his wallet do the voting. I am looking at a little Class A 10W all-tube single ended amp right now. It has glowing reviews on Harmony Central without a single unhappy owner. The amp is on sale at Musician's Friend for $200, and uses a 12AX7 and a 6L6 and a Celestion speaker. WHY BUY AN OLD CHAMP WITH PROBLEMS FOR THE SAME OR MORE MONEY? Heck, the Kustom Tube 12 that Musician's Friend sells for $80 now will beat an old Champ, and can play high gain distorted rock as well as make a Gretsch sound country clean. I can hear some of you moaning and cursing me right now, but slam a Vintage 8 (rock) or Legend 875 (country) in that Tube 12 and get back with me.
I did some shopping today and found Mogami W2524 coax that is specifically designed for high impedance guitar circuits for the low, low cost of only 39 cents a foot. Musician's Friend sells a 15' Neutrik phono plug terminated cable made by Mogami from this same stuff for $37.95. I think building your own cable from this stuff could be cost effective, and would probably compare well against the Evidence cable. I'm thinking of buying a 100-foot roll for $39 plus S&H.
Philip: You will be able to plug in and play in your neighbours' homes with 100 ft.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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toneman
W2: Alessandro's. No, sorry. My friend Drew Berlin (who runs the Vintage Dept. for all of the Guitar Center's) swears by them though. I know Drew has good taste and knows good tone so they must be pretty decent. I do believe that Tony who owns Evidence use to work for Audioquest and thought he could do better cables.
I have used silver plated solid core wiring in the internal wiring of audiophile gear, and I do not feel that it messes up the sound in any way. What it DOES do is allow excellent adhesion to silver bearing solder (96% tin/4% silver), which can't hurt the sound. In small diameters under 20 gauge, the signal travels through the entire wire and high frequencies do not have exaggerated migration to the outer silver layer as is claimed for larger diameter conductors.
I think any boost that silver gives is in increased adhesion to solder (silver is an irreplaceable ingredient in many high tech adhesives) rather than increased conductance. I only use silver bearing solder in audio equipment. Excellent audiophile interconnect cables have been made from iron that has very high resistance to current flow compared to copper and silver. Compared to your input and output impedances, the resistance of your guitar cable doesn't even enter into the equation. Speaker cables are another matter entirely.
I think any boost that silver gives is in increased adhesion to solder (silver is an irreplaceable ingredient in many high tech adhesives) rather than increased conductance. I only use silver bearing solder in audio equipment. Excellent audiophile interconnect cables have been made from iron that has very high resistance to current flow compared to copper and silver. Compared to your input and output impedances, the resistance of your guitar cable doesn't even enter into the equation. Speaker cables are another matter entirely.
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toneman
Speaker cables are another matter entirely.
Yes, they certainly are. For years I would always replace speaker wires in my own amps and HiFi speaker cabinets with larger stuff. My logic was of the "well if it's bigger, it should let more signal pass through easier". Although I never used anything larger than 12 guage for HiFi speaker cables or bigger than 14ga. in a guitar cabinet. Seemed like after you got to a certain point it didn't matter.
Evidence makes some great speaker cables though.
Yes, they certainly are. For years I would always replace speaker wires in my own amps and HiFi speaker cabinets with larger stuff. My logic was of the "well if it's bigger, it should let more signal pass through easier". Although I never used anything larger than 12 guage for HiFi speaker cables or bigger than 14ga. in a guitar cabinet. Seemed like after you got to a certain point it didn't matter.
Evidence makes some great speaker cables though.
I use Audioquest Type 4 loudspeaker cables. They cost $1.50 per foot on closeout special. They use 4 conductors, each 18 gauge. That means about 16 gauge when the two wire pairs are combined. My power hungry Vandersteens run through 15' bi-wired pairs and do not starve for any current.
A high end audio reviewer said that going to a better speaker cable above Audioquest Type 4 seemingly made little difference to him. (He and the magazine later separated. Reviewers are supposed to support the Wire Bandit advertisers that pay huge advertising bills). My experience has been that the smaller the signal, the more difference a better cable made. That's why my phono cable is the most expensive cable I own, and the first one I would upgrade.
Electric guitars put out relatively small signals. I got about 100mV RMS when I hit a chord loudly on my 650D. A CD player typically puts out 2V RMS at full output. That's about a 26 dB disadvantage for the guitar, so you need a quiet cable that is well shielded.
A high end audio reviewer said that going to a better speaker cable above Audioquest Type 4 seemingly made little difference to him. (He and the magazine later separated. Reviewers are supposed to support the Wire Bandit advertisers that pay huge advertising bills). My experience has been that the smaller the signal, the more difference a better cable made. That's why my phono cable is the most expensive cable I own, and the first one I would upgrade.
Electric guitars put out relatively small signals. I got about 100mV RMS when I hit a chord loudly on my 650D. A CD player typically puts out 2V RMS at full output. That's about a 26 dB disadvantage for the guitar, so you need a quiet cable that is well shielded.
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toneman
I got a speaker cable from Evidence the other day and was absolutely floored at the sonic improvement over what I'd been using(which was a no name 16 ga. cable and as well a Klotz speaker cable for a longer one). I know good speaker cables make a difference but wasn't ready for the drastic improvement that the Evidence Cable made. It makes my old 50 watt plexi Marshall head that I use as a shop amp sound very harmonic and clear and with my new Vox AC-30 HW it was just a jaw dropper. It's an incredible amp but didn't know how sonically superior it was until I used the Evidence between it and the alnico Celestions in my cab. Woah baby!! Break-in is 40 hours.. I just can't imagine how much better it'll sound after that amount of time. It's already a bleenin' miracile tonally!