Paul, I'm trying to help a friend restore his '75 4001. Much of the work has already been done, routes have been filled, parts have been changed back, pots have been re-wired correctly and the neck was adjusted (I know how to do it with the old folded rods), but there is still one serious problem I don't know how to approach.
The neck is straight - almost no relief. The strings he uses (and always has used) are light gauge .040's. Still the action is too high. The bridge saddles (he chose the Hipshot bridge) are as low as they will go, and still the action is too high.
Sighting down the neck, it's obvious that the neck meets the body at an angle, which needs to be corrected. In a bolt-on bass I'd just shim it and be done with in 5 minutes. What can be done with a neck-thru 4001?
Thank you in advance for your help and advice.
Neck/body angle
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Neck/body angle
"A Noble Instrument Must Be Nobly Regarded"
Not sure what Paul would say, but my take is on this one, sight unseen, of course, is that when the body wings were glued on, the neck through section somehow wasn't aligned to be parallel
to the top of the body, as is the ideal situation.
Unless this was a really beat up bass needing a refin[in which case a determined woodworker Might go about trying to take the body halves off the neck section, and re-align them, a dicey job at best, but not impossible] I'd say there's not a lot you could do.Ilan, ever notice over the years on Rick basses that fingerboards have varied in thickness? For kicks, check that parameter sometime.
to the top of the body, as is the ideal situation.
Unless this was a really beat up bass needing a refin[in which case a determined woodworker Might go about trying to take the body halves off the neck section, and re-align them, a dicey job at best, but not impossible] I'd say there's not a lot you could do.Ilan, ever notice over the years on Rick basses that fingerboards have varied in thickness? For kicks, check that parameter sometime.
Thanks for your advice, Don.
Wouldn't heat treatment help? Or clamping the bass with a back-bow? I've seen this phenomenon (high action with the bridge all the way down and a straight neck) on a few early to mid-70's Rics, so it's not just that bass.
Before we started working on the bass, it had a BadAss bridge recessed into the top. Now I understand that it probably was a previous owner's attempt to overcome the neck angle issue and lower the action.
I've never noticed the fretboard thickness variance, I don't have calipers but I'll see if one of the neighbors has calipers and I'll take that measurement.
Wouldn't heat treatment help? Or clamping the bass with a back-bow? I've seen this phenomenon (high action with the bridge all the way down and a straight neck) on a few early to mid-70's Rics, so it's not just that bass.
Before we started working on the bass, it had a BadAss bridge recessed into the top. Now I understand that it probably was a previous owner's attempt to overcome the neck angle issue and lower the action.
I've never noticed the fretboard thickness variance, I don't have calipers but I'll see if one of the neighbors has calipers and I'll take that measurement.
"A Noble Instrument Must Be Nobly Regarded"
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
Hmmm. Don got the jump on me there...
First thing I'd do is check and see just what the variance is on this bass. Here's how:
You will need a very flat surface at least as long as the bass. A marble, stone, or formica kitchen countertop (not tile) would be the way to go. Lay the bass on its back on the countertop. If it rocks a bit, it's most likely going to be because the bass body is slightly crowned or even warped. If it rocks a lot, check by sighting around the body where it contacts the countertop. If you do see a lot of warp, this could be one factor.
If it's laying acceptably flat, you'll next need a fairly accurate scale ruler. I use a steel machinist's scale or even a precision height gauge, but you may not have those laying around the house. You can use a short 6" scale, available under the GENERAL brand name at any hardware store for a few bucks.
Measure the height of the edge of the fretboard, at the point where it contacts the body (at the cutaway/neck heel area) on both sides. Write down the measurement and move to both sides of the neck at the nut. Do the math to calculate any differences. Do this both tuned to pitch and with the strings relaxed.
Theoretically, the fretboard top surface should be the same all along the length of the 'board. If you find that the nut end is appreciably higher with the strings relaxed, try carefully tightening both truss rods. (Remember the proper procedure on these old rods!) If the rods are really drastically snugged down already, I would get it to a luthier who can apply heat and weight to get it back where it belongs.
I'm not sure I agree with Don re: the body sections not being aligned when the bass was originally glued up. My gut tells me that there's something else at work here.
Neck relief--and Ricks don't really need any, theoretically--is really down to individual preference. However, you should be able to get the proper string height simply with saddle adjustments on the Hipshot.
Hope this helps. Although your description was excellent, it's still a tough thing to diagnose without having the bass in hand.
First thing I'd do is check and see just what the variance is on this bass. Here's how:
You will need a very flat surface at least as long as the bass. A marble, stone, or formica kitchen countertop (not tile) would be the way to go. Lay the bass on its back on the countertop. If it rocks a bit, it's most likely going to be because the bass body is slightly crowned or even warped. If it rocks a lot, check by sighting around the body where it contacts the countertop. If you do see a lot of warp, this could be one factor.
If it's laying acceptably flat, you'll next need a fairly accurate scale ruler. I use a steel machinist's scale or even a precision height gauge, but you may not have those laying around the house. You can use a short 6" scale, available under the GENERAL brand name at any hardware store for a few bucks.
Measure the height of the edge of the fretboard, at the point where it contacts the body (at the cutaway/neck heel area) on both sides. Write down the measurement and move to both sides of the neck at the nut. Do the math to calculate any differences. Do this both tuned to pitch and with the strings relaxed.
Theoretically, the fretboard top surface should be the same all along the length of the 'board. If you find that the nut end is appreciably higher with the strings relaxed, try carefully tightening both truss rods. (Remember the proper procedure on these old rods!) If the rods are really drastically snugged down already, I would get it to a luthier who can apply heat and weight to get it back where it belongs.
I'm not sure I agree with Don re: the body sections not being aligned when the bass was originally glued up. My gut tells me that there's something else at work here.
Neck relief--and Ricks don't really need any, theoretically--is really down to individual preference. However, you should be able to get the proper string height simply with saddle adjustments on the Hipshot.
Hope this helps. Although your description was excellent, it's still a tough thing to diagnose without having the bass in hand.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Thanks Paul. I'll take all these measurements and see what can be done.
Yes, the rods are already tightened as much as is safely possible (I don't want to snap the ends, although I can fix that too if needed). Is the heat/weight treatment done with the rods out of the neck? inside it? tightened? relaxed? How much weight? And for how long?
"it's still a tough thing to diagnose without having the bass in hand"
It won't be easy for you to examine the bass in person unless you plan to take a trip to Tel Aviv in the near future...
Thanks again for all your help.
Yes, the rods are already tightened as much as is safely possible (I don't want to snap the ends, although I can fix that too if needed). Is the heat/weight treatment done with the rods out of the neck? inside it? tightened? relaxed? How much weight? And for how long?
"it's still a tough thing to diagnose without having the bass in hand"
It won't be easy for you to examine the bass in person unless you plan to take a trip to Tel Aviv in the near future...
Thanks again for all your help.
"A Noble Instrument Must Be Nobly Regarded"
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
I do my best, but don't have plans for a Tel Aviv trip in the near future...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
"...routes have been filled..."
By any chance had this been routed out for a different neck pickup? I have seen this happen to Ricks that had other pickups installed, such as a Gibson Mudbucker. If that is the case there may not be enough neck left above the pickup route for the body wings to support.
One more thing that I will mention is that I bought a new 4000 bass in '69 and a friend bought a 4001. I believe the 4000 was a '68 due to the HS pickup. Neither of these basses were able to obtain a low enough string height when new without sanding down the bottom of the bridge. After sanding the bridge just sat on the tailpiece. If you don't need too much adjustment you can also file the grooves on the bridge saddles a little deeper.
By any chance had this been routed out for a different neck pickup? I have seen this happen to Ricks that had other pickups installed, such as a Gibson Mudbucker. If that is the case there may not be enough neck left above the pickup route for the body wings to support.
One more thing that I will mention is that I bought a new 4000 bass in '69 and a friend bought a 4001. I believe the 4000 was a '68 due to the HS pickup. Neither of these basses were able to obtain a low enough string height when new without sanding down the bottom of the bridge. After sanding the bridge just sat on the tailpiece. If you don't need too much adjustment you can also file the grooves on the bridge saddles a little deeper.
"The best things in life aren't things."
Thanks Ken, the trouble is that as it is now, there isn't enough breaking angle over the bridge saddles, and they rattle. If we sanded down the saddles or deepened the grooves, this will get worse.
And the route that was filled was for the BadAss bridge. No wood was taken out if the neck pickup route.
And the route that was filled was for the BadAss bridge. No wood was taken out if the neck pickup route.
"A Noble Instrument Must Be Nobly Regarded"
Paul;
I only mentioned the body half glueing thing,cause I actually got to watch it being done at the factory in '72, so I know how these basses are put together from the bottom up.The care we took in making sure things were aligned before the sides were glued and clamped Should make it so that this could Not happen, but on a one off basis, it could happen.Ilan, is this neck what you would consider a fairly flat/thin profile?
Definitely do some straight edge checking as Paul says.
I only mentioned the body half glueing thing,cause I actually got to watch it being done at the factory in '72, so I know how these basses are put together from the bottom up.The care we took in making sure things were aligned before the sides were glued and clamped Should make it so that this could Not happen, but on a one off basis, it could happen.Ilan, is this neck what you would consider a fairly flat/thin profile?
Definitely do some straight edge checking as Paul says.
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
I understand, Don, as I've also seen it being done in every visit I've made to the factory recently, too. It's just my gut feeling that this is not the case here.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Ilan;
So is the string angle/break behind the bridge Really the only negative factor on this bass? If so, and seeing it's already been Badass modded, I have another "mod"I have done to address this occasional problem.Email me off-Forum, and I will explain to you.If you do it, using the stock 4001 bridge, you would not readily know anything had been changed.Then, if you do it and like it, you can rant to the bass guys here.
So is the string angle/break behind the bridge Really the only negative factor on this bass? If so, and seeing it's already been Badass modded, I have another "mod"I have done to address this occasional problem.Email me off-Forum, and I will explain to you.If you do it, using the stock 4001 bridge, you would not readily know anything had been changed.Then, if you do it and like it, you can rant to the bass guys here.
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
Don: Why not post it here and share the knowledge?
Knowledge is power, after all...
Knowledge is power, after all...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Possibly.Though it's actually fairly simple to do,it's time consuming to type out the details.
I'm probably more verbose than you when it comes to details, but as a 1 finger typer, the time it takes to do it drives me nuts.I should do it though.The mod is something I did to my own 4001 when I still had it,as well as to a handful of other guys' Rickys.Everyone raved about the end results.And none of us had the issues with the bass Ilan is describing.I'm just writing this as I wake up with cup # 1 of Sumatra brew[hey, let's do a thread on fave coffees!?]
I'm probably more verbose than you when it comes to details, but as a 1 finger typer, the time it takes to do it drives me nuts.I should do it though.The mod is something I did to my own 4001 when I still had it,as well as to a handful of other guys' Rickys.Everyone raved about the end results.And none of us had the issues with the bass Ilan is describing.I'm just writing this as I wake up with cup # 1 of Sumatra brew[hey, let's do a thread on fave coffees!?]
A short description of what I do is this; I make a plate with holes in it for string ends and mounting screws that hides Under the back end of the big 4001 bridge plate.The idea is to have an alternate place to anchor the string ends[Not in the 4 holes in the end of the 4001 tailpiece].For a better idea of what I am describing, think of the bridgeplate/string anchoring that the old Rick 450 guitar uses; I put keyhole shaped holes in this hidden plate under the tailpiece, so the strings can get a bit more downward angle behind the bridge saddles.I made the plate out of 1/16" steel, and countersunk like 6 flathead screws to
attach it to the surface of the area under the bridge baseplate.Before I do that, however, I trace around the plate on the face of the bass, and then Dremel out the wood to recess/flush mount the plate into the wood, so that when everything is reassembled, the big bridge baseplate covers the whole thing. The string ends feed thruogh the 4 holes in the baseplate behind the bridge,and down into the keyholes.Oh, and you also need to drill 4 holes under this new plate, where the keyholes are, so the ball end has someplace to move.Sound complicated? Actually, not really, but a bit of fussing and tinkering is required. But from reading posts in the Rick Basses section of the Forum, I think more than a few guys have fussed more than this as home tinkerers.To anyone wanting to try this, having a drill press is invaluable.
attach it to the surface of the area under the bridge baseplate.Before I do that, however, I trace around the plate on the face of the bass, and then Dremel out the wood to recess/flush mount the plate into the wood, so that when everything is reassembled, the big bridge baseplate covers the whole thing. The string ends feed thruogh the 4 holes in the baseplate behind the bridge,and down into the keyholes.Oh, and you also need to drill 4 holes under this new plate, where the keyholes are, so the ball end has someplace to move.Sound complicated? Actually, not really, but a bit of fussing and tinkering is required. But from reading posts in the Rick Basses section of the Forum, I think more than a few guys have fussed more than this as home tinkerers.To anyone wanting to try this, having a drill press is invaluable.