Lack Of Original Compostions Held Them Back

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:16 am

One of the reasons The Searchers did not do better than they might have in the charts was their lack of original material. I have always wondered why they did not publish more of their own material. After all, The Beatles seemed to trun out hits quite readily. When The Searchers lost Chris Curtis, they certainly reduced the amount of stress that they experienced in working with him. At the same time, they lost a great voice and a composer.

From an old interview with Owen Money, BBC Wales in April 2002, Mike Pender said

"Really Owen, every group relied on covers really. Cause at that time nobody was writing songs. It wasn't til later that the Beatles started writing. I mean they were good at it. Unfortunately we weren't. And so really after our initial three years from 1963 up until 1966, I think they were our three big years, I think we sort of faded away a little bit because we weren't really writing our own material. We were still depending on other people to give us their songs.

Very interesting comments from Mike Pender. The Searchers relied on Chris Curtis to find songs for them and he did this very well. Curtis also penned some nice tunes and in all likelihood would have continued to do so. While the group recovered from the loss of Tony Jackson, they did not from the loss of Chris Curtis.

Some critics consider that the Searchers had run their course by 1965 at any point, however, it might be argued that retaining Curtis, while very hard on the head, might have resulted in a few additional hits in the late 1960s.

The Searchers have lost Jackson, Curtis, Blunt, Adamson and Pender. To me, their greatest loss was Curtis. Recovering from all their other personnel losses does not seem to have been as difficult. With the departure of Curtis in the mid 1960s hits were lost. I don't think the same can be argued in the case of the others. Pender left after the potential for hits had passed by.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:12 pm

Little Steven, on his sydicated radio show "Little Steven's Underground Garage" (Sat. 10-midnight, 97.1 for those in L.A., a great music program, IMO), played "Don't Throw Your Love Away" by the Searchers, first time I'd heard it. (I'd only know them for Del Shannon's "Needles and Pins").
Afterward he opined that the Searchers were in a way like a British version of the Byrds, for they both recorded rocked up versions of old folk songs (at least for a time). Then he wondered aloud, who obtained their 12 String Ric first, McGuinn or the Searcher's guitarist, and forgive me for not knowing his name.

His theory was it must have been close, as both bands must've seen A Hard Day's Night simultainously. I'd say the Searchers, being British, had the upper hand, probably being closer to what was hip over there. But then there's the availabilty factor, where even if both parties got the idea at the same time, being in America might have given one quicker access to one.

Since the Rickenbacker question was pondered on national radio by Bruce Springsteen's guitarist and an upstanding artist in his own right (THAT Little Steven), I'd suggest we chew on this, and let the experts chime in (pun used here before, I know).

And I wish I knew his show's web address offhand, because they post their weekly playlists, and I guarantee you'd all dig it!

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:37 pm

Jerry: Needles and Pins was composed by Sonny Bono and Jack Nitzsche and recorded by Jackie DeShannon. The Searchers recorded Needles and Pins after DeShannon. The Searchers were one of the first, at least from my research, to record folk rock of which What Have They Done To The Rain is a good example. Mike Pender was the lead singer and 12 string player for The Searchers. Pender got his Rickenbacker 12 string in 1964 and his first recording with a Rickenbacker 12 string was When You Walk in The Room released in September 1964. I believe that Mr. Tambourine Man was released in April 1965.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 3:20 pm

Could've sworn it was Del. I know he wrote a lot of great tunes that others covered, and was to be the new Wilbury after Orbison's passing.

And to correct myself after viewnig the Seachers page, I'm familiar with many of their recordings, momentary lapse of memory. Thanks for the info. If I find Little Steven's site, I'll make sure he's hep to that. Mostly I wanted to pass along Rics were being mentioned on a nationwide show.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:00 pm

Oh, now it hits me. I was thinking of "I Go To Pieces" by Del, done by Peter & Gordon.

jjr · Post by **jjr** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:42 pm

The Searchers invented folk rock. They did "All My Sorrows" and "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" as early as '62-'63. I believe, if memory serves, Pender got his Rickenbacker after seeing (and/or hearing) George Harrison's, and Harrison bought his on a visit to the US in the summer of '64. I would submit that the Byrds are an American Searchers, instead of vice versa.

As to Peter's statement about who was the biggest loss, I agree it was Chris. Pender's loss is more problematic, because the situation had changed. I think Tony's loss was probably second to Chris', because it took away their "Rock Act", and bluesy vocalist. The other drummers (aside from qualifying the Searchers for a "Spinal Tap" lifetime achievement award) were no loss of historical significance.

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:07 am

John: George received his first Rickenbacker 12 string from Mr. F. C. Hall during the Beatles brief 1964 American visit associated with their first Ed Sullivan show appearance. George bought his first Rickenbacker Model 425 (actually a Model 420) in the fall of 1963 when visiting America before he was known. The story of this visit and his purchase of the Model 425 can be seen here.

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:34 pm

Good to see a new name on the forum Jerry, keep commenting. Much speculation and conjecture is atributed to Curtis leaving, fact is and it hurts me to say it The Searchers were on the decline, in commercial terms by the time Curtis left. It could be argued that he may have found a new song that would propel them back but I doubt it. During the Hit years they did write some good stuff themselves my article Searchers Sing Searchers lists some but perhaps their producer or themslves just had no real confidence in them. I also believe the Searchers association with Rickenbacker is at times overrated, I am not convinced it was used on that many recordings.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:01 pm

Roy: I am sure it comes as no surprise to you that I have taken the bait and I am most interested in responding to your comment

"I also believe the Searchers association with Rickenbacker is at times overrated, I am not convinced it was used on that many recordings.

I believe that there is sufficient information to argue that Mike Pender used his first Rickenbacker 12 string guitar often on stage and in the studio from 1964 until it was stolen in 1969.

With regard to why the Searchers obtained a Rickenbacker Mike has responded to a number of my questions and said

Well it all started in 1964, Chris Curtis and I felt we needed something different for the next single release "When You Walk In The Room". Then I saw George Harrison on TV with his "Rick", I just had to have one - that sound!! The rest of course is history. The 12 string is without doubt my (second) love!! From "Walk In The Room" onwards, my Rose Morris Model 1993 12 string was used on all recordings and all performances, until it was stolen!! I still have the 456/12.

Moreover, he seems to be very confident about the time in which the instrument was stolen

The Rick was stolen from a Club in Wolverhampton and I believe it was 1969. The Road Manager at the time as a guy called Chris Cotterel and I have never forgiven him!!!! Needless to say from that moment on I have never left my guitar with road crew.!!!!!!! I bought the guitar which was specially ordered for me from Crane's Music Store in Liverpool and I can assure you even to this day I still wish I had it to play.

So I would still contend, notwithstanding the passage of roughly four decades, that the Rickenbacker meant a lot to him and that he and the other members of the band enjoyed the sound. It only makes sense that he would use it on stage and in recordings. I have not done a song by song review, however, I do recognize the classic tone on the Searchers recordings starting with perhaps their most famous and recognized number "When You Walk In The Room."

I consider that the Rickenbacker became a bit part of their sound from 1965 until 1969. It was not onboard for the "first jangle" of Needles and Pins but it was alot easier to jangle with the 12 than two six strings. Interestingly John McNally continues to use his Rickenbacker 12 string with The Searchers today.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:18 pm

Having heard "Needles and Pins" recently (after discovering this forum), I listened carefully. You're saying that's not a Rickenbacker? Sounds as though he was having a tough time with the chords. Do you know what kind of guitar he was using?

david · Post by **david** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:54 pm

The Byrds & The Searchers may have both used Rickenbackers and played folk rock but I do not see too much crossover similarity as far as the actual Rickenbacker "sound" as both groups had quite distinctive sounds ,the Byrds favouring and being responsible for the more "chimier and "janglier" playing of their Rickenbackers.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:19 pm

Jerry: Needles and Pins is played by Mike Pender with a Gibson ES345 and John McNally with a Hofner Club 60. The combination of these two guitars is responsible for the "jangle."

David: I quite agree. The Searchers played the Rickenbacker 12 string very clean while Roger McGuinn of the Byrds used substantial compression and sustain effects with his Rickenbacker. The result, as you have noted, is two quite different sounds from essentailly the same model.

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:15 am

Peter

I am certainly not a guitar affecianado like yourself and others but my comment is based on the following.

On the Take Me For What I'm Worth album it is a Burns guitar by Mike Penders side and a Brns Bass in Frank Allens hand. I believe they had a contract with Burns and these were used on Sounds Like Searchers and the Take Me Sessions,. Mike did certainly play a Ricken backer on Stage but not all the time. I don't recall seeing him with that manty times between 67 -69.

However it is certainly raises a topic for debate.

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:31 am

by the way,
how do you think, if we let out the fact that there were very few songs written by the band members, who in your opinion was the most competent in songwriting, and what are your reasons? (the result of the 'voting' may be quite predictable, though).
Curious, Sheena.

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:15 pm

Have you read Searchers Sing Searchers on Clough Links Sheena