Hey all...
I've been playing the Rickenbacker 360/12 I recently bought and it seems as if it's kinda sour/out of tune? I've never set up a guitar....any help or advice would be great.
Thanks
Sour notes?
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Jon, I will post a cross thread in The Vibrola section, where this question more aptly belongs, so that our luthiers/experts in-house will be able to comment.
Off hand, it sounds like the intonation may be a bit off. What brand/model/kind of tuner do you use?
Off hand, it sounds like the intonation may be a bit off. What brand/model/kind of tuner do you use?
It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing. - Seneca
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jwr2
It's possible that it can be "fixed" by having the intonation adjusted and set by a pro. Twelves often seem to vary a fair bit from one to another. I think I currently own twelve-strings number seven, eight and nine and I haven't seen one yet that plays perfectly in tune. Even if the set-up is great, you can often sit there with a tuner all day long getting the open strings "perfect" and it still may sound funky when you start to play.
One usually needs to develop some sort of "tempered" tuning and a reliable means of checking it. Even though certain strings may no longer agree with your tuner, the overall sound is better. Use your tuner to get in the ballpark (usually with the A, D, and G pairs) then tune the B pair slightly flat. The low E string should also be slightly flat. The low E octave string usually won't need to be flattened as much as it's big brother. The high E pair can often be tuned with the tuner, but you'll want to check it against some chords.
Your results on your guitar may certainly be different from mine, but I use a few specific chords to then fine-tune by ear. Once it will play all of them reasonably, I know I'm OK. The chords I use are Em, G, C, an A chord made by sliding an open F chord up to the fifth fret and leaving the high E pair open, some sort of sweet F# chord made by sliding an open Dm chord up to the fifth fret, a D chord made by sliding an F chord up to the tenth fret and a E major, but played as if the twelfth fret was the nut. The Em and G are helpful in tempering the amount of flatness needed on the low E string. The C is a pretty good test across the middle strings. The A and F# give me a pretty good read on the relationships between the G,B and E pairs and the high D chord and E at the twelfth fret help me check the stuff up the neck.
Whether those exact chords will work for your guitar and your ears, I don't know. The point is to come up with a repeatable system of tuning, checking and final tweaking to arrive at a repeatable result that works. If it takes me five minutes to tune my twelve, I may spend one of those minutes with the tuner, but the other four are done by ear, working through the chords and tweaking for sweetness.
One usually needs to develop some sort of "tempered" tuning and a reliable means of checking it. Even though certain strings may no longer agree with your tuner, the overall sound is better. Use your tuner to get in the ballpark (usually with the A, D, and G pairs) then tune the B pair slightly flat. The low E string should also be slightly flat. The low E octave string usually won't need to be flattened as much as it's big brother. The high E pair can often be tuned with the tuner, but you'll want to check it against some chords.
Your results on your guitar may certainly be different from mine, but I use a few specific chords to then fine-tune by ear. Once it will play all of them reasonably, I know I'm OK. The chords I use are Em, G, C, an A chord made by sliding an open F chord up to the fifth fret and leaving the high E pair open, some sort of sweet F# chord made by sliding an open Dm chord up to the fifth fret, a D chord made by sliding an F chord up to the tenth fret and a E major, but played as if the twelfth fret was the nut. The Em and G are helpful in tempering the amount of flatness needed on the low E string. The C is a pretty good test across the middle strings. The A and F# give me a pretty good read on the relationships between the G,B and E pairs and the high D chord and E at the twelfth fret help me check the stuff up the neck.
Whether those exact chords will work for your guitar and your ears, I don't know. The point is to come up with a repeatable system of tuning, checking and final tweaking to arrive at a repeatable result that works. If it takes me five minutes to tune my twelve, I may spend one of those minutes with the tuner, but the other four are done by ear, working through the chords and tweaking for sweetness.
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shackleton
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shackleton
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Was it new when you got it? If not the intonation could have been messed with. Has your sting height been changed? How is the neck angle? It should be totally flat. Stings as low as they can go with out excessive buzz. What strings are on it? That can make a hugh difference. They have to be the right gauge or every thing else is pointless. I just ordered a 620/12 and told them not to bother changing the strings since they were out of ric.
Got to start with one make it a 360/12.
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shackleton
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shackleton
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I would start with a new set of Ric strings. These guitars are made for them and they have unique guages and will not intonate with the wrong ones. Also rics are compressed round wounds which are much smother that normal strings. I suggest you take it some where that has them and let a tech set it up or purchase some first and then take it to a tech. I good at working on guitars and it took me 3 hrs to restring my 360/12 which had old strings. I didnt even play a cord untill they were changed.
Got to start with one make it a 360/12.
"I love this guitar but, if I pay that much money for a guitar, it should be damn near perfect."
Jon, that's logical, but It really isn't that easy. The intonation may have been messed with, but it may not have been. It's a mathematical thing. Guitars don't play perfectly in tune because the geometry of fretted instruments won't allow it. A twelve string, having twice as many strings and mixtures of different string diameters just calls more attention to the problem. The fact that most Ric twelves are played bright and clean, just calls even more attention to it. You do want to be sure that the intonation is set up as well as possible (ideally by somebody who knows Ric twelves and who will probably do a little bit of tempering of their own during the intonation and set-up process), but to at least some extent, you the player have to learn how to tune your instrument and temper your tuning to get the sound you're looking for. It doesn't matter what brand of twelve-string you have. Assuming it's a good one, it's the same drill.
Jon, that's logical, but It really isn't that easy. The intonation may have been messed with, but it may not have been. It's a mathematical thing. Guitars don't play perfectly in tune because the geometry of fretted instruments won't allow it. A twelve string, having twice as many strings and mixtures of different string diameters just calls more attention to the problem. The fact that most Ric twelves are played bright and clean, just calls even more attention to it. You do want to be sure that the intonation is set up as well as possible (ideally by somebody who knows Ric twelves and who will probably do a little bit of tempering of their own during the intonation and set-up process), but to at least some extent, you the player have to learn how to tune your instrument and temper your tuning to get the sound you're looking for. It doesn't matter what brand of twelve-string you have. Assuming it's a good one, it's the same drill.
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shackleton
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- Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:02 pm