When to apply a finish protectant to a new Rick?

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:29 am

I just got my 4003DCM. When I play it of course I want to clean it up afterwards. It could use a protective coat to clean it up more easily, but I am hesitant to put anything on it right now, as by the strong paint smell it still seems to be curing. I have heard in the past that applying a wax coat to a fresh paint job like this could keep the paint from curing properly, since it could block in some chemicals that really do need to evaporate out of the paint (I'm thinking car paint here).

Would a Zymol application be a bad thing at this point? If so, how long to wait?

If I should wait, then what does that say about body oils or other chemicals that will be making their way into the paint when I play? I know from other threads that using chlorine-based hand soaps can be a bad thing for the finish.

Thanks

s4001 · Post by **s4001** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:13 am

I'm no expert, but I'm not touching mine with anything other than my hands or a dry rag for a few months. Just to be safe.

Besides, I'm used to a little gig grime on my axes.....

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:55 am

You can Zymol right away. I always do the Scratch-X/Zymol treatment on my new Ricks, right out of the case during my initial setup. Gets rid of the buffing haze and makes the finish gleam like glass.

The chlorine hand soap issue relates specifically to a brief run of MID from over a year ago.

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:30 am

I just finally received a brand new 350V63 Liverpool Midnight Blue today via UPS (MF waited 15 months between the time it was originally ordered and the time they delivered it to the purchaser), and the first thing I did (after letting it acclimatize to the different "air" temp and RH for an hour) was to put the factory finish under some bright halogens. It was very streaky and hazy, and has a "chemically" paste wax smell to it.

I had just bought fresh Scratch-X and Zymol at Target last night, and I first stripped the paint of that hazy waxy stuff with my favorite cleaner, good old Ronsonol (naptha lighter fluid, like for the old Zippos). Since I have never smoked anytime in my life, one bottle of that stuff lasts decades

.

I then applied the Scratch-X, following the package directions, and did it twice. After buffing well, I applied four coats of Zymol, letting it dry well between coats and buffing each one up well with a clean soft 100% cotton baby diaper. With each coat, the gloss built up deeper and more glassy-looking. This Zymol is great, because it doe build up multiple layers. None of the smelly cheap car waxes that I have used on my cars (like NuFinish or Turtle Way) ever built up that glassy depth of multiple clear coats. They all stripped the previous coat off. Not Zymol! You do have to put it on over a perfect finish to get maximum effect, but the Scratch-X helps hide the micro-scratches that the factory left in the finish that were revealed by the lighter fluid, and that Zymol bonds over it and makes a perfect glass-chell finish.

Greg and Scott, RUN don't walk to get these two products, and do it now while the paint is still perfect. Then this Zymol coating will help protect the paint from scratches especially now while the paint is still getting its last 5% of hardness.

As soon as the weather warms back up again (we went from 80 degrees F last week to 23 degrees F here in Maryland this morning

) I will get photos and post of this gloss

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:30 am

Thanks Paul.

Will Zymol protect the paint from absorbing other oils that could stain the finish? What do you think about generally handling these instruments when they are brand new. It seems like it's still curing.

squirefan01 · Post by **squirefan01** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:34 am

I do have both Zymol & Scratch-X. They work great!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:15 am

The conversion varnish takes a few months to completely cure, but RIC takes care to allow a minimum three-day cure at room temp before buffing and assembly. By this time the finish is no longer solvent-reactive, and is 90% cured. It will continue to harden and shrink for awhile.

Elys, the Scratch-X doesn't "fill" any micro-scratches (which is what buffing haze is composed of), but actually is a very fine abrasive rubbing compound. The better compounds use cerium oxide, but it is slow to break down and even in a typical particle size (3 microns) is too coarse and rough for soft paint finishes. Make no mistake, even the hard shell finish of a Rick guitar or bass, is very soft compared to substances like glass or most metals.

Scratch-X is a simple mix of micro-fine kaolin (Chinese white clay powder; it's pronounced "kow-lin" and is actually a Chinese place-name)--and our old friend naphtha. We don't normally think of this stuff as an abrasive material--its typical use is as an inert filler in compounds like toothpaste and calamine lotion. But its advantage in this sort of use is that it is a soft abrasive and begins in a 3 micron particle size and due to its softness breaks down in use...the result is a glasslike surface.

Then the surface is protected further by Zymol, the waxes in which act to "fill in" any micro-micro scratches which the Scratch-X may leave.

Because Scratch-X has naphtha as its solvent and vehicle, it will strip any Zymol or other wax from the paint surface. So to use it over (or "after") Zymol is of no use. So get your Scratch-Xing done BEFORE your Zymoling--and use separate scraps of clean cotton diaper for each.

When I rub out a new finish post-color-sanding, I keep a scrap of diaper about 4" X 4" that I've saturated with Scratch-X, then allowed to fully dry overnight or longer to evaporate the naphtha away. I then dampen in with water slightly. This is how I get the inside corners of the neck/body joints nice and shiny before I Zymol them.

jnbass · Post by **jnbass** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:52 am

and there ya have it!

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:04 am

Excellent description of the physics involved, Paul! Scratch-X is truly an abrasive rubbing compound, then! The site http://www.kaolin.com describes how Georgia kaolin is separated according to particle size in centrifuges to separate the larger particles from the 3 micron or less particles, really cool! I have always heard it apparently mispronounced [KAY-oh-linn].

So, it seems it does actually thin the outer layer of clear-coat a miniscule bit, but like silver polish its particles are also abraded to smaller and smaller sizes in the process to buff the paint to a high gloss. And here I mistakenly thought it was somehow "filling" the scratches on a microsopic layer somewhat, before the Zymol filled them the rest of the way.

I did clearly smell the naptha, though. I went ahead and used it liquid, but that dry-overnight trick is a good one, so may I please put it into my Milton Berle notebook, Paul?

skeeterbuck · Post by **skeeterbuck** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:28 am

Paul, in your earlier posting you stated that the conversion varnish shrinks. This is the first I have ever heard of this,

Is this similar to how nitro lacquer will continue to shrink into the wood for years?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:36 am

Conversion varnish, like nitro, does indeed shrink.

Over about 30 days, CV will lose roughly 1/2 of its post-cure film thickness. I've done test batches and can speak from experience. Then, over a much-extended time frame, another 15-25%. I would say that after a year it's about shrunken-out.

Nitro generally starts out MUCH thinner than CV (CV starts at .012" to .015", down to .007" or so when cured and shrunken) and shrinks less, but either way nitro's darned thin and soft and remains solvent-sensitive through its entire life, as there's no crosslinking ("conversion") taking place.

skeeterbuck · Post by **skeeterbuck** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:11 pm

Thanks Paul!

The idea about letting the Scratch X solvent evaporate overnight is also great. Is this one of your old plastic modelling tricks? I have read here before about your building models.

I have used this same idea on model airplane canopies. This works great on the clear plastic to make it totally transparent.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:14 pm

Haven't built a plastic model since roughly 1968 or so, Charles. I have, however, offered my own line of resin-cast large scale builtups in the past, from my own prototypes and molds...That would have been around '78.

Scratch-X is a realtively recent product (I'm thinking around 2003 or so?)

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:01 pm

Paul wrote:

... kaolin (Chinese white clay powder; it's pronounced "kow-lin" ...

Elys wrote:

... I have always heard it apparently mispronounced [KAY-oh-linn] ...

I'm pretty sure that it should be pronounced as Paul states, but according to both Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition and McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific and Technical Terms, 5th Edition, the pronunciation is kay-uh-lun (u being a substitute for the schwa).

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:16 pm

Paul do those shrinkage statistics indicate that, within reason, a luthier could obtain a superior finish in terms of thickness without compromise of too-thick finish cracking if CV was built up in successive cycles of clearcoat addition by adding another series of clear coat layers every year for several years? All cost considerations aside, of course!

Or are there severe downsides to thickening the coat in this fashion, by applying a new coat set over the completely-shrunken initial coat set after one year?