330 Truss Rod and Neck Issues

[wrnchbndr]

Hello. I'm new to this forum and generally live on the Fender forum. I'm a professional luthier, and the service manager at a small privately owned music store. I've only seen a few Ricks over the years and found out about your forum via the FDP.

I have a late seventys 330 in pristine condition with the exception of a separating fretboard on the treble side from about the 12th fret to the heel of the set neck. The gap is about 1/32nd. I cannot press the gap closed -- even with a clamp. Using a straight edge, it is clear that this gap is responsible for an elevation of the fret height. As things are, If I were to inject glue and clamp the fretboard, I would need to remove an excessive quantity of fret material to achieve a level fret field. Using the truss rod, frets 1 through 12 level out nicely but 12 through 24 ramp upwards. From an ignorant standpoint, I'm thinking that the fretboard needs to be removed and what ever is preventing the gap from closing needs to be fixed. I would probably need to build and bind a new fretboard. This is well within my ability but a lot of work.

I have heard that some Ricks have a removable truss rod. Is this the case with the model 330 that has two side by side truss rods? A defective or misshapen truss rod could be preventing the fretboard from laying flat. If I can pull out the truss rods, the fretboard may lay flat and I could plot a new strategy.

[admin]

Welcome to the RickeResource Forum, Mark.

I will let the luthiers give you the best advice on this one, however, the truss rods do indeed come out and from your description may be the culprit in this case.

[johnallg]

And though I'm not a luthier by a long shot, I will caution about glueing - be careful not to fill the channel the truss rod sits in. BTW, they come out the top - take off the nuts, take off the small bar, and pull out.

[beatlefreak]

Welcome to the forum, Mark. Since it is a late seventies 330, it tounds like someone attempted to adjust the truss rods by merely tightening them. Ricks made before 1985 must have their truss rods adjusted by a special process - Simply tightening the rods can indeed pop the fretboard off the neck. It's possible that one or both the truss rods are bound up, causing the gap you describe.

[wrnchbndr]

I've done all I can and removing the truss rods didn't help toward closing the gap at the heel. Even with heat, the gap would not close using clamps. One of the trussrods was fractured and I'm going to replace both. I took photos of the fretboard being removed and the techy folks here might find them interesting or helpful. Feel free to copy these photos if your forum has an archive. Very few people have seen the inside of a Rick neck. I'll post more photos of the repair as it progresses.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561438527WerYIS

[doctorwho]

Excellent pictures. Our main luthier experts, Paul and Dale, should be able to tell you exactly how to proceed.

[jingle_jangle]

Wow. I wrote a very detailed post on this and my #$^#$^& Windows computer (which will be replaced next Monday with a new Apple G5, thank God in all Her wisdom) crashed. Here we go again...

Mark, I see the inside of Rick necks on a daily basis.

Your 330 exhibits a textbook case of a meatball owner or repairman with too little knowledge and too much enthusiasm and torque. Rickenbacker necks are much responsive to tweaks--and abuse--than other marques. Broken truss rods, separated fretboards, are typical signs of abuse.

Now that you've got the board off the neck, first step is to check for flatness and twist of both parts. A Rick neck that's twisted at rest with rods removed and no board, is difficult (if not impossible) to correct, but application of pressure (I use an eccentric weighted wooden jig that clamps to the neck near the nut and accepts c-clamps set to one side or another to correct twist like this) and moisture and heat can correct it, if done carefully.

Flatness of the neck should be checked and the neck planed as required...I use a vertical mill and special jig to fix this, but careful planing and checking with a steel straight edge, can work, too. Then you need to check flatness of the fretboard, too. If the old one is not flat and too screwed up to plane, you'll have to make a new one. Try to resist the temptation to make it out of ebony, though...

If you've planed the neck, you'll have to check the truss rod channels for depth by clamping the neck and fretboard together dry and sliding the rods in and out. If they hang up anywhere along their lengths, the channels should be checked and carefully deepened in the offending areas.

Once all this is in synch, you can glue the parts together (I use Titebond). Don't use too much, or glue oozing into the channels could mess up the truss rods' fit. (This gluing up should be done with the rods out, incidentally). When you clamp, clamp right, left, right, left, etc, to avoid twisting the neck in the process by putting too much weight on one side or the other. Let the glue set overnight, then unclamp.

Check the board once again for flatness. If any area is out more than .005", you glued it up wrong and will have to split the two with a heater and start again. Tiny discrepanciers can be planed/sanded out. Now refret, varnish, etc. The Rick triangular fret markers are a specially-made combination of crushed pearl and water-clear polyester or epoxy. (I use surfboard coating polyester.) Making them is an essay in itself.

Hope this all helps.

[johnallg]

I find the pictures and Paul's missive very interesting. From the picture of just the fretboard, it looks twisted quite a bit, but that very well could be camera angle and perspective. Maybe Mark will comment on this.

[wrnchbndr]

John, the twist in the photo, yea I see it too, is just due to the camera angle and maybe the editing I did for size using photoshop. I'm currently doing a lot of exploration of documentation photography and hopefully will be getting some instruction from a pro soon. Taking pictures of guitars and parts is actually quite difficult sometimes when you want to specifically illustrate an idea or a black glossy finish.

I did a thorough diagnosis of the fret field proir to doing any work and prior to removing the fretboard, the glitch caused by the gap at the heel was the only significant problem. I'm catching up on some of the routine work in the shop and think I can get back to this Rick within the week to clean up the mating surfaces and check for level. I also need to acquire a pair of truss rods and check for fit before gluing it all up again.

Paul, I was really planning on using hide glue. I'm confident with it. Asside from set-up issues and time constraints, is there reason to not use it? For fretboards, I warm them up first which gives me a much extended working time. Pulling apart hide glue joints in the future is a lot easier while the bond is just fantastic. I either coat exposed truss rods in paste wax or Saran wrap prior to gluing but considering that the rods are supposed to be removable, I'll take your advise about not gluing up with the rods installed. I might make up a rectangular clearing rod and maintain access to the slots so I can run the slot through a few times after clamping up. A damp wet cotton patch on a rod might be the best idea. As a side note, the uniformity of glued surface under the fretboard was spotty with about 50% of available surface not having any glue at all.

[jingle_jangle]

Hide glue is just fine for fretboards, Mark. I don't use it because RIC doesn't, but of course if you are accustomed to it, it's just fine for just this purpose! And its superior bond and easy disassembla-bility with heat application, are both pluses.

[beatlefreak]

Disassembla-bility?

[jingle_jangle]

Disassemble-ability???

[paologregorio]

Dissemble ability , but PW's grammatical construction captures the visual much better IMHO

[jingle_jangle]

Dissemble ability , but PW's grammatical construction captures the visual much better IMHO

Dissemble-ability is what G. Bush has. ("Dissemble" is to lead a conversation off-topic in order to avoid answering a question.)

Disassemble is to take something apart. Hence--"disassembla-bility"--a thing's capacity for coming apart easily. And who's to say that I misspelled a made-up word?

[wrnchbndr]

Its a good word and has alternate spellings. Dissassembleability or the more coloquial dissassembla-bility. Its a technical term used soley within the luthery community which has license to develop any word it wants to describe lutheristical processes.

Hey! I got around to cleaning up the mating surfaces of the neck and the fretboard. I'm freaking out over how unsubstancial the neck is without the fretboard. I have never seen such an accident waiting to happen and this is a completely different engineering concept to building a guitar neck. The fretboard and neck mate perfectly and the joint will need just a minimal amount of cosmetic work to invisablize the repair. Until I get my replacement trussrods, I've got the fretboard securly taped to the neck to keep the neck safe. Even in the instrument case I'd be concerned about handling the case roughly and damaging the neck. I sacrificed three position markers for alignment pins (5/16" sections of heavyduty paperclip). The pin will end up below the surface of the position marker and I feel confident that I can invisablize the little drill hole with a color matched filler.